Re: CAFE standards controlled by our Government? Can someone explain why?

And cost to the environment for all the gas, the batteries, recycling the batteries, the extra motors and electronics and resale cost and how long the life of the car will be.

My point was that hybrids get better mileage on the highway than similar cars without a hybrid system.

So there is a definite benefit to use a hybrid system in cars that run mostly on highways. However, I don't know if this benefit is worth the extra money or the environmental cost.

Jeff

Actually, the 'loop' for Highway ratings is 45 MPH. Nowhere near actual driving conditions (Unless you're in LA where it should be 8MPH...)

And in all actuality, EVERY Toyota I have ever owned has bested it's EPA Highway rating by at least 10%...COMBINED mileage. My Corolla GTS was rated at 32 MPG highway, I got 36 MPG combined. My Corolla SR-5 was rated at 28 MPG highway, I got 34 Combined. My Tercel was rated 33 MPG Highway, I got 45 MPG Combined. And I don't drive like an Old Man, either. A lot of trips in the Tercel were at least 70 MPH, and a few at 80. Likewaise, the GTS was always run on the highway at 70 MPH, even when the speed limit was

1. Running at 55 MPH dropped the Combined MPG to 30 or less.

Isn't the point of all this to save the consumer money on gasoline while at the same time allowing them to have a comfortable ride in a car that will last some 7-12 years ?

If so, how does a Prius do?

Bob Brown wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@bbb.org:

You'll never keep a Prius (or any hybrid) long enough, or drive it enough, to recoup the extra cost of the purchase.

Any "savings" come only if you disregard the premium you paid to be "green".

"Tegger" ...

I, for one, fully intend to get a couple of hundred thousand miles at least out of the Prius. Tomes (189K on the Sienna so far)

Actually, I think you can recoup the cost after "x" years. Of course, the length of time it'd take would be rather largely influenced by the price of gas & if tax breaks are re-introduced. It would also have to do with how much you would ordinarily spend on a new car, and how long you tend to keep them. If you normally spend over $20K anyway, and keep it for severla years, then I don't see why you couldn't expect to make out on the purchase, $-wise. OTOH, if you normally spend $14-15K &/or change cars every few years, well then...

Cathy

The point of a hybrid drivetrain is to *reduce* fuel consumption while at the same time allowing the consumer to have a comfortable ride in a car that will last at least 7 to 12 years. Because of the higher cost of the hybrid drivetrain, the consumer doesn't really save money until the reduced fuel consumption has covered the premium paid for the hybrid drivetrain.

I would have NO interest in a car that only lasted 12 years.

....says the happy driver of a '92 Corolla Wagon......

This depends on the particular car or truck and the difference in the fuel used as well as the price of fuel. For most hybrids, it seems like it takes about 300,000 km or 200,000 mi to pay back the cost, without tax breaks, in the US.

Jeff

You don't have to contend with salt on the roads & the rust factor. In the north, if you want to keep a car as long as its engine will last, body work needs to be done on an ongoing basis.

Cathy

Not trying to be mean but I aint going to pay a penny more for anything just because it's 'green'. Other people can do that, those people with extra money I guess.

NOT YOU!

I'm speaking in general.

I'm asking if it makes any sense? People ONLY talk about MPG never discussing the premium for a Prius, or for that matter any 'new' car.

With interest, most people have no clue what the final price was on their new , now 5 years old, car.

Do you want an ounce of gold or a pound of aluminum? Gee, wonder which one the 20s crowd would pick...

Wouldn't that take 300,000 - 500,000 miles?

I'd love to see an article on the person who is first with a 100k prius. I'd also like a copy of his credit card/other accounts to see if he made any 'repairs' during that time.

I heard someone say 200K miles was the payoff point on the Prius, but what if like a lot of people you never make it to 200K miles?

So cars are unlucky, even if they "average" 200K miles of life. Every car of that model is not going to get 200K miles even with proper care.

If I offered a fund where you give me $5K per year for a return of $2 Million in 30 years? Sounds good. Ok, what if I said "You can't touch it before 30 years even if you were willing to take a penalty"?

I'd probably keep the money of 90% of the people.

I seriously doubt the 'average' lifespan of a Prius will end up being

Everyone has that 'story' of this 'car' that gets 477k miles because they did the right things and took proper care unlike those 'other people'.

Which was my point, but you can all tell the fish stories.

No, not really. It is difficult to determine the "break even" point on a Prius because there is no conventionally powered version of the car. My guess is that the break-even point on a Prius vs. a 4 cylinder Camry is around 75,000 miles with gas at $3.00 per gallon. The 2 biggest variables are fuel cost and driving conditions.

There are quite a few Prius with well over 100,000 miles, most notably in Taxi service in NYC. The article I read said that there were no repairs other than normal maintenance.

Bob Brown wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@bbb.org:

If it costs more, it's not "green".

Being "green" means reducing the use of ALL resources, not just the ones you WANT to pay attention to.

Unfortunately, I have not seen any accounting of the use of other resources and the environmental costs of those resources that are used by hybrids.

Jeff

"Jeff" wrote in news:2zHXh.10279$Fs6.2646@trnddc03:

The fact that the cars are expensive to buy (and that Toyota only breaks even on them if they disregard development costs) tells you that hybrids are wasteful of resources.

If a thing is relatively expensive, this can only mean one of two things:

Maybe not. There are definitely places where a hybrid makes a lot of sense. It seems to me that any driving pattern that involves a lot of stop and go driving is potentially a good place for a hybrid. When we were in Victoria, BC two years ago, I was impressed that many of the taxis were Toyota Priuses. I don't think taxi companies would buy vehicles that were not economically attractive.

I wonder if there is an application for true diesel/electric or gas/electric vehicle that operates more like modern locomotives. It seems to me that once you buy into including a generator and motor set in a car, you might as well go one step further and eliminate the conventional drive train. You could still include batteries to provide "surge" power for qucik acceleration.

Don't forget government policies as an influence. Do you think hybrids would have gotten a foothold in the US if it wasn't for the early tax rebates and CAFE rules? The Prius must have a significant positive impact on Toyota's CAFE numbers.

And if people always bought cars for strictly sensible reasons, there would be no Lincoln, Cadillac, Lexus, Aura, Infiniti, etc....

Ed