It seems that Mobil has copied AMSOIL in its train intervals.
I figured that since there was a link on Oil Filters we should maybe discuss the OIL and intervals to change oil as well.
"" wrote: > It seems that Mobil has copied AMSOIL in its train intervals. > > I figured that since there was a link on Oil Filters we should > maybe discuss > the OIL and intervals to change oil as well. > >
Try
Also, here is an email that I had forwarded to me. VERY interesting. Not sure if there are any current problems
RIch
Toyota's estimate of engine oil sludge complaints was 3,200 in 2002. Why then does a Toyota spokesperson, John Hanson, say in a recent article that there are only about the same number of complaints to date? What kind of deceit is that?
With over a thousand dealerships nationwide and several cases of sludge in a months time, how in the world did Toyota come up with that number? Even if not all owners are reporting the problem, are we to believe that Toyota is naive enough not to know better?
Toyota is making the details of its "Customer Support Program for Engine Oil Gelation" very hard to find even on its own web site. Toyota is contributing to the shut down of discussion of the matter on several web sites, including Edmund's Town Hall, which close the discussion right after it began!
Toyota is taking lots of money from new Toyota owners for extended warranties and denying the claims when sludge hits. Does it know this will happen? Isn't this fraud?!? Is any information given out to prospective buyers who are shopping for a "certified used" Toyota? Are they told about the CSP at a bare minimum? No, they are not. Are they duped into buying an extended warranty which will turn out to be bogus for sludge repairs? Sure, they are.
How long will Toyota go on denying this problem is related to engine design or component malfunction? How long will it keep that "proprietary data" hidden from the Toyota owners and the buying public? How long will this company secretly fight those who wish to speak out about the matter? How long will it keep up this charade?
Many Toyota owners would like to know the answers to these questions. Many cannot believe that a company can carry out its business in this manner and still be expected to be respected in the marketplace.
Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution
CamryMan spewed his dis-information, unsubstantiated facts and skewed logic for:
Charlene Blake
Did you not expect us to decipher from the original poster's statement that he bought a used car? That he immediately started using good oil(s) as he had no service records? And you want us to believe this is tied in to your skewed logic on sludge and is somehow Toyota's fault? Instead of worrying yourself over extended warranties why don't you study up on logic so you won't be as transparent. Finally, Toyota does not have a sludge problem with their vehicles, but does have a problem with owners who can not or will not read their owner's manual and apply the proper service intervals to their vehicles. You can't prove any of your facts with documented sources, only conjecture backed up by more conjecture. davidj92
Seems that this Charlene Blake isn't the only one complaining. There is a class action suit coming up in the near future against Toyota and Dateline is being contacted to run the story, I wonder if it gets to national TV, VW Beatles never even had a recall when it was proved that their seats dislodged in accidents allowing occupants to be thrown into the dash.
Check it out here.
David,
It seems that there are too many facts that refute your insolent attitude.
In this next article listed below it tells of Toyotas BIG problem with sludge. Automotive News in 2002 wrote an article concerning the problem with sludge that was effecting both Toyota and VW. In the article linked below you will find the REASON that there was a problem with Toyota's design and what they recommended and offered the customers.
So, if someone is 'spewing' things around the newsgroup it isn't me, IT'S YOU.
You should study something in depth before you accuse others of 'spewing' things on the net. When your shown that YOU are wrong it really makes you look foolish.
Now, check this link out and you can apologize for your arrogance when your finished reading.
Hey David,
How about a Wall Street Journal Report that shows that YOUR SPEWING crap and not me!!!It seems that YOU are the one who is "SPEWING DIS-INFORMATION"!!! Here is part of the article from Lubereport.com.
Shall I find other information that disputes your insulting and inaccurate post?
VW is not the only carmaker to fork over money the past few years for oil-related engine problems. Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. begrudgingly offered in 2002 to pay for repairs to engines damaged by oil gelation, a phenomenon occurring at cold temperatures when oil turns to a semi-solid gel that fails to flow. Toyota maintained that problems in its engines were caused by owners who did not change oil often enough, but made its offer after receiving complaints from a few thousand customers.
Toyota engines are not the only ones sludging up these days. VW turbos are having the same problem. This is understandable because turbos run hot. The Chrysler 2.7 V6 are also having the same problem.
The effort to reduce polluti> David,
Your are correct, John in your post. In the one link I posted to refute David's claim that I was spewing dis-information around, it was mentioned that Toyota and other dealers have reduced passages in the cooling circuit and this has caused sludging as well. This overheating results in petroleum oils sludging up the passageways. This is why petroleum oils have to be changed more often than synthetics.
Now, John, are you saying that the Turbos are still having sludging problems? If I'm not mistaken VW has solved the problem by recommending the use of 100% pure synthetics. MOBIL 1 is NOT 100% synthetic, it is a mixture of synthetics and petroleum products. Amsoil is 100% synthetic and was the inventor of synthetics. They have a chart rating their oils with major brand synthetics and there is a vast difference in all areas of oil testing.
BTW, I don't sell and I'm not a dealer for Amsoil. I use their products and they are wonderful. So, my posts are of usage and not profit.
This week my Camry goes in for Amsoil 2000 0-30W and also for 100% synthetic transmission oil with a new filter. The car has 4800 miles on it and I'm not going to end up with any problems due to oil sludging or flocking etc. Its cheaper to pay now than later.
Rich
This is not ture. Some Amsoil products are 100% synthetic, but others are highly refined petroleum oils (XL product line - see
So what. I have only used Havoline 5W30 conventional oil in my 1992 F150. I never had any sort of oil related problem and the engine is still in great shape after 97,000 very hard on oil miles (lots of short trips, heavy loads, hot weather operation). My sister uses nothing but Havoline conventional
5W30 in her 1997 Civic and she only changes it based on the oil change odometer indicator (approximately every 7500 miles). After 8 years and 110,000 miles, her engine is just fine. My SO has used nothing but the cheapest 10W30 oil she could find at the local parts store in her Plymouth van and only changed it at highly irregular intervals. The engine is now past 200,000 miles. She did have to have a burned valve replaced 2 years ago, but the inside of the engine looked very clean (too bad it is still a POS engine). My point is - the fact that you haven't had any problems with Amsoil doesn't prove anything. You are not running a side by side compariosn with another oil, so your good results don't mean Amsoil is cost effective, or that it made your engine last longer, or that it prevent sludge, or anything except that it ws good enough for your usage. The cheapest Wal*Mart oil might have done just as well. You just don't know. You can believe it is worth the added expense, but you can't prove it.While I think it is obvious that certain Toyota engines were more likely to suffer from sludge than most competitor's engines, I do believe that proper maintenace would have eliminated the majority of problems. I don't think synthetic oil was needed to avoid the problem, although I do think it might have helped.
Ed
Geoman submitted this idea :
OH, the same folks who investigatged the exploding pickups. ;)
I wonder if it gets to national TV, VW
The discussion isn't about Fords, this happens to be a post about Toyota problems. I will later today send you a Toyota certified mechanics forum that has a few links talking about the sludging probelms. Your comparison to Ford is ridiculous, there is nothing to compair. Toyota ADMITTED that they reduced the cooling bore sizes in the heads and this resulted inthe oil overheating and sludging. BTW, you will see on this TOYOTA Forum that they admitted to this mistake. So, who are you arguing with, certainly not me but Toyota, they ADMITED the problem but for some reason you and others still persist that there "IS not problem if you change the oil regularly" The forum for mechanics at Toyota also discussed this as well and they stated that there were problems with cars that were serviced BY a Toyota dealer. So, whats your post about?
II have a 1008 E-350 extended and it has 285,000 miles on it, I bought it used and it was an Emery delivery truck. It did NOT use synthetic, does this prove that Toyota didn't have a design problem? I still don't understand your reasoning, if you have a problem with the argument that Toyota had an engineering problem TAKE IT UP WITH TOYOTA, THEIR THE ONES WHO ADMITED IT!
My sister uses nothing but Havoline conventional
WRONG, TOYOTA's solution along with VW's and Chryslers to the sludging problems was to USE SYNTHETICS. This PROVES that synthetics doesn't have the problems that the petroleum oils have. What do you think the decision of these manufactures proove, nothing? Once again, your arguing the results with the manufactures. I stated that I USE Amsoil, but I never said either of these manufactures say to use Amsoil. I Stated that the solution was to use a synthetic.
I do admit that I forgot about the oil Amsoil produces that is a mix of petroleum and synthetics, whats the big deal?
You are not running a side by side compariosn
If I had a Toyota, VW or Chrysler that was from those years of sludging you don't think that the added expense is worth the cost? I think that proves it by itself.
Also, if you read the sites instead of jumping in here contradicting yourself you would see that Amsoil stated that manufactures have increased the mileage of oil changes, even Mobil 1 stated to go up to 12,000 miles. Name one petroleum product that states such a claim. If you have extended oil changes upwards to 25,000 miles you can see a savings of about $60. Now, I'm sure that since you don't read things and links before posting I will have to discuss the 25,000 mile topic with you as well.
Rich
It was also in the Wall Street Journal as well as automotive magazines as I mentioned earlier and the other night I also found it on a Toyota Certified Mechanics Fourm where they were talking and ADMITTING that they use to have a problem with certain Toyota's. VW and Chrysler also had problems and they BOTH stated that the solution was to change to a synthetic oil. This PROVES that synthetics are far superior to petroleum based products. I'm not saying every car has to have them, I'm saying however if you want the best oil then forget the petroleum products all together.
Rich
Geoman wrote: with certain Toyota's. VW
I think this further proves the theory that any sludge problems are for the most part caused by owner's lack of maintenance or correct maintenance intervals as synthetic oil is more forgiving than dino oil when subjected to severe driving or prolonged change intervals. davidj92
State facts, not opinions and I will pay attention to you or anyone else. I have no insolent attitude, only no patience for those who try to spoil Toyota's reputation with SWAG's and not facts.
Article states opinions not facts. It is written by a marketing/advertising manager and his goal is to sell you Amsoil oil, which is overpriced sythetic oil. He is correct that sythetic oil will hold up better than dino oil, and for what I read, for the right reasons. But, he mixes facts about sludge and oil breakdown, while both are bad for engines they are caused by two seperate factors and create two seperate symptoms in the oil. Then, his most qualified source, Larry Perry, an A.S.E.-Certified Master Technician (doesn't say which one, could be parts counter certified) who owns a repair shop and hosts a radio talk show in Florida attributes the cause of oil breakdown with the symptom of sludge. I'd say his radio talk show should be good for some laughs by certified tech's in his audience. I am an A.S.E. certified Master Auto Technician, some certifications in Heavy Truck, have owned my own shop and was lead mechanic for a fleet for quite a few years, so I know a little about this subject and have dealt with people, public and their excuses.
Automotive News in 2002 wrote an article concerning the
See comments above. Design changes were for a possible overheating problem that could cause oil breakdown or coking, not sludge.
I spew facts while you spew conjecture. I've stated my qualifications, let's hear yours and some facts.
I've studied a lot as I stated above. Also, am a Certified Electronic Technician (ISCET) and some college. If that makes me foolish then so be it. YOU are wrong about what you are quoting as truth and either don't know it or don't care. When you publish something like the email you alledgedly recieved, even if you didn't author it you are responsible for it's accuracy when you present it to be truth. I'd say that makes you look foolish, but I forgive you.
Read the article, see above comments. I have no arrogance and don't have a need to apologize. You came in the ng with an email you recieved that was full of b.s. and has been discussed in this and other ng's until it is a raw subject. You probably knew this and are one of Charlene's people, if not I will apologize for this accusation.
If you are innocent and desire information, then ask and you will recieve. davidj92
I read the report and again you are posting skewed facts. In YOUR post it states sludge (oil gellation) is caused by cold temperatures (I would go on to explain the rest of the equation to you but, I don't think you'd listen) then want me to forget about the heat issue (in several of your other posts) you keep trying to intertwine with the sludge issue. The causes and effects are two seperate issues yet you keep trying to mix them together. This hasty generalization (how's that for a logic characterisation?) might work for an novice mechanic or possibly even an owner who is scared by all the media hype concerning this but not for the informed. Also, in YOUR post it states: Toyota maintains that problems were caused by owners not changing their oil often enough. Then they made a good will offer trying to maintain a good-will attitude, which you and Charlene are trying to skew into an admission of guilt, which it wasn't, isn't and never will be. I read the source for your post and it states VW made a goog-will offer to it's customers, and you are trying to skew this into an admission of guilt, which it wasn't, isn't and never will be. In your other post your source cited VW's sludge problems to heat issues which, again, don't cause sludge. Now, go and find me some more "crap" that disputes me whilst I have another laugh on you. davidj92
Geoman submitted this idea :
I know, I am aware ojf the problem in other cars also. I was only commenting on Dateline running the story. They have some interesting past history on other stories. They aren't alone. Do a Google search on "dateline pickup trucks". ;)
For most situations, yes, I would agree with you.
Some of them are still quite good.
I am not sure if the VW's (1.8 turbo) are still having the same problem. That's if the owners are using synthetics meeting VW requirements (not all synthetic oils do btw). There is a recommended change schedule of 5000/6mo FOR SYNTHETIC OIL! Ouch $$$$$ I don't know if Toyota recommends the same list of synthetics or not. But they haven't increased filter size and oil capacity like VW.
Good thing the other Toyota, VW and Chrysler engines don't sludge like these ;-)
Ok, ok, for you others Fords and Chevys don't need these sludge warranties ;-)
DETROIT - In the latest example of Volkswagen of America Inc.'s quality woes, the automaker is warning 426,000 VW Passat and Audi A4 owners of an engine oil sludge problem. Affected are 1.8-liter turbocharged four-cylinder engines on 1998 to
2004 Passats and 1997 to 2004 A4s. VW won't say how many engines have been replaced or repaired, or what it is spending to fix the problem.Owners began receiving letters from VWoA this month. Remedies range from extending warranties to covering repair costs. That includes replacing engines.
Sludge buildup causes engine performance to deteriorate. In extreme cases, sludge can cause engines to seize.
The timing couldn't be worse. VW Division has old products, and sales are down 11.5 percent for the first seven months compared with the year-ago period. And it has only been a year since VW voluntarily recalled more than 500,000 vehicles because of faulty engine ignition coils.
VW is not alone in grappling with engine oil sludge complaints. Last week the Center for Auto Safety in Washington demanded that the Chrysler group fix sludge problems and extend warranties on 2.7-liter V-6 engines in its 1998 to 2002 vehicles.
Confirming that VW has received "numerous reports of problems," VWoA spokesman Tony Fouladpour said that VW is extending factory warranties from five years to eight years. Warranties are transferable.
Changes for '05
VW is requiring its dealers to use synthetic oil and a larger oil filter in the 2005 Passat and A4. Some 2005 A4s are in dealerships. The
2005 Passat will arrive in October.A National Highway Traffic Safety Administration source said the agency has had 12 to 15 sludge complaints for 2000 to 2004 Passats and A4s. One complaint was about an engine seizure.
VWoA will pay the cost of replacing an engine. For example, an independent repair shop in Tennessee that just replaced a sludge-damaged engine in a 1999 Passat charged the customer $2,500. Of that, $1,400 was for labor. The customer would be eligible for a reimbursement if he can show that he was having the oil changed as recommended.
VW dealers are seeing the problem mostly with owners who don't follow the recommended oil change intervals, said Gene Langan, of Gene Langan Volkswagen Inc. in Glastonbury, Conn.
"I've seen a few cases," he said. "It seems to happen mostly when we can't verify oil change history, when people don't do them for 20,000 miles. I think that this is a problem that is pretty broad in the industry right now."
VW owners will pay more for an oil change with synthetic oil, Langan said. An oil change with regular oil costs about $30, he said. It's about $65 with synthetic oil.
In its letter to Passat and A4 owners, VW says that it will cover necessary engine repairs if oil sludge causes a problem and the vehicle owner could provide proof of oil changes. Oil changes would have to be according to VW-recommended maintenance schedules. VW recommends that oil be changed at 5,000 miles or six months.
How it occurs
The letter states that engine oil sludge occurs when old, dirty engine oil thickens and cannot continue to provide correct lubrication. It says the condition occurs primarily when the engine is operated at oil change intervals beyond those prescribed in the owner's manual.
Fouladpour said VW decided to contact owners after studying the oil sludge problem that Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. Inc. faced two years ago.
Toyota in April 2002 notified 3.3 million owners of 1997 to 2002 Toyota and Lexus vehicles with certain V-6 and four-cylinder engines that it would pay for sludge-related repairs for eight years from date of purchase. At the time, Toyota said that it had received about 3,400 sludge-related complaints.
"We looked at that and learned from their experience," Fouladpour said.
VW builds most of its 1.8 T engines at its Gyor, Hungary, engine plant.
From their FAQ:
Is Mobil 1 with SuperSyn Technology a fully synthetic motor oil? Yes, it is. To meet the demanding requirements of today's specifications (and our customers' expectations), Mobil 1 with SuperSyn uses high-performance fluids, including polyalphaolefins (PAOs), along with a proprietary system of additives. Each Mobil 1 with SuperSyn viscosity grade uses a unique combination of synthetic fluids and selected additives in order to tailor the viscosity grade to its specific application. What is your source to say it is not??
snip
German engineers were the first to develop synthetic oil during the 2nd world war. They were trying to make oil last longer to solve the problems they had with tanks in the hot African desert. If I'm wrong, correct me someone. Amsoil may have been the 1st company to make synthetic oils available for street use though.
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