synthetic oil change interval?

My 99 Camry 2.2l is now out of warranty so I'm free to change the oil at whatever interval seems sensible. I'm in Canada, so I'm supposed to
follow the severe service interval of 5000 km/3000 mi. Toyota goes out of their way (on their website) to say that one should follow the dino oil schedule even if synthetic oil is used.
My friend's Volvo has a recommended (synthetic) oil change interval of 12 000 km / 7500 mi . There is also some evidence on the web ( http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/oil-life.html ) that this is a safe interval to follow from the point of view of viscosity, dissolved solids etc. (In fact, the Mobil 1 oil tested was shown to be good for 29 000 km!) However, the oil filter from that study is a lot bigger than the tiny one on my Camry so I think I'd want to change the filter more frequently. There is also the sludging issue to consider...
I'm curious: are you using synthetic in your Camry? If so, what oil change schedule are you following? The factory recommendation of 3000 mi seems excessively conservative and wasteful given the evidence that modern synthetic oil ought to be good for many times that distance.
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I have a 2002 Camry LE V6 and change the oil every 6,500 km to 8,000 km using Mobil 1 !0W30 (in summer) and 5W30 in winter. No issues. With dino (regular) oil, I changed it every 4,000 to 5,000 km. Toyota recommends 6 month, 8,000 km oil change frequency for the 2002 Camry LE V6 and I stay within that.

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You know, my old 68 VW bug had no filter and ran hot, as it was air cooled. The conservative estimate was 3000 miles for the oil change. Today, with a cooler running engine, a good Puralator oil filter and top quality Mobil 1 oil, I figure 5000 miles is the sweet spot for changing the oil. This should give me 200,000 miles plus, any less and I'm wasting time and money, any more and I get into wear, acid buildup and sludge issues.
-- John M. Darnielle Remove anti spam phrase from reply address to e-mail me.

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When I owned my Chrysler minivan, I was using Amsoil. They recommand one year or 25,000 miles and change the filter (6 microns which makes a difference) at 6 months or 12,500 miles. When I had to get rid of the van (1990 V-6 3.3) it was because of the cost of fixing the transmission and the new paint job it needed rather than an engine issue. It ran like a charm. Smooth, no leak, etc. I would use it to in my 93 Camry but I am contemplating trading for a newer model so I won't bother use anything else than Valvoline synthetic and AC Delco filter. I'm not afraid to change at every 10,000 kms. And the car has 265,000 kms.
JP
Nobody Important wrote:

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Nobody Important wrote: || My 99 Camry 2.2l is now out of warranty so I'm free to change the || oil at whatever interval seems sensible. I'm in Canada, so I'm || supposed to follow the severe service interval of 5000 km/3000 mi. || Toyota goes out of their way (on their website) to say that one || should follow the dino oil schedule even if synthetic oil is used. || || My friend's Volvo has a recommended (synthetic) oil change interval || of 12 000 km / 7500 mi . There is also some evidence on the web ( || http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/oil-life.html ) that this || is a safe interval to follow from the point of view of viscosity, || dissolved solids etc. (In fact, the Mobil 1 oil tested was shown to || be good for 29 000 km!) However, the oil filter from that study is a || lot bigger than the tiny one on my Camry so I think I'd want to || change the filter more frequently. There is also the sludging issue || to consider... || || I'm curious: are you using synthetic in your Camry? If so, what oil || change schedule are you following? The factory recommendation of || 3000 mi seems excessively conservative and wasteful given the || evidence that modern synthetic oil ought to be good for many times || that distance.
Well, I use synthetic on my 99 Camry and use a 6,000 km change interval. No car was ever damaged from having too MANY oil changes but LOTS of engines have been damaged from too FEW changes. The lube value of the oil lasts a LOT longer than the ability of the oil to HOLD the dirt in suspension. Change it already. Even syn oil is much cheaper than a new engine.
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message

interval. No

engines
lasts a

suspension.
This is one of those rare and concise posts that hits ALL the salient concerns about oil servicing.
--

- Philip @ Maximum Torque RPM



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Philip wrote:

rare and concise? I see only platitudes without supporting evidence. Changing oil more frequently than necessary is a waste of money, time and recycling resources. In the special case of a brand new car, it causes poor engine run-in.
OPtimally, people should cite studies, similar to the one I cited, or refuting studies to try and help us decide what a reasonable synthetic oil change interval is based on EVIDENCE.
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Nobody Important wrote:

Then my young idealistic friend, you need to define what "more freqently than necessary" means.
The rest of your post is juvenile rubbish.
--

- Philip @ Maximum Torque RPM




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On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 00:59:33 GMT, "Philip?"

Sorry, but it's science. Without independent evidence all we have is the manufactures trying to maximize their profits. It does no good to claim authority, no good to site personal experience, no good to relate folk tales and no good to provide studies funded by vested interests. It's investigation and studies (not just referenced, but with links to the data) using the scientific method. I'm 65 and a retired electrical engineer so my position is founded on both education and experience.
Glenn
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I have you by 5 yrs and with due respect, your electrical background is not relevant to engine oil. My background in the past 22 yrs professionally is in automotive and truck service/repair followed by 10 yrs driving line haul OTR.
--

*Philip

This may be a good example of what happens to people who have spent
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On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 13:15:08 GMT, "Philip?"

But it's not science. Of course my background isn't relevant to oil, that's why my criticism was about lack of science. I made no attempt to answer the question about intervals. Science, is the only way we can determine answers to questions like that in the subject. Your experience is of little use. There was no control. There was no documenting of data points. There was no statistical analysis of the data. There was no effort to randomize the samples. There was no review. It's only what you remember and memory drops data points where science doesn't (unless of course it's biased reporting by those motivated by profits).
Glenn
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change
the
the
background
by
Glenn, this is a REAL OLD subject in this and several other automotive and truck forums. You're a "johnny come lately." So in order for you to save face, I'm going to let you have the last word on the subject of oil changing.
--

- Philip @ Maximum Torque RPM



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On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 16:37:45 GMT, "Philip?"

I don't want or need the last word, I want you to understand science. I want you to realize that your experience doesn't qualify you to generalize about oil change intervals. I want you to understand that your attitude is symptomatic of the failures of our education system which has led to so many job exports, to an economy in shambles, to a political system of smoke and mirrors, to religions that want to rule the world, etc. Mostly I want you to listen when someone argues with you and for you to refrain from personal attacks. In this case, you are out of line and should apologize to Nobody Important for he is right and you are wrong -- unequivocally.
Glenn
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Glenn wrote: || On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 16:37:45 GMT, "Philip?"
|| |||
||| ||||||||| ||||||||| Well, I use synthetic on my 99 Camry and use a 6,000 km change ||||||||| interval. No car was ever damaged from having too MANY oil ||||||||| changes but LOTS of engines have been damaged from too FEW ||||||||| changes. The lube value of the oil lasts a LOT longer than the ||||||||| ability of the oil to HOLD the dirt in suspension. ||||||||| ||||||||| Change it already. Even syn oil is much cheaper than a new |||||||||| engine. ||||||||| ||||||||| ||||||||| This is one of those rare and concise posts that hits ALL the ||||||||| salient concerns about oil servicing. |||||||| |||||||| rare and concise? I see only platitudes without supporting |||||||| evidence. |||||||| Changing oil more frequently than necessary ||||||| ||||||| Then my young idealistic friend, you need to define what "more ||||||| freqently than necessary" means. ||||||| ||||||| The rest of your post is juvenile rubbish. |||||| |||||| Sorry, but it's science. Without independent evidence all we |||||| have is the manufactures trying to maximize their profits. It |||||| does no good to claim authority, no good to site personal |||||| experience, no good to relate folk tales and no good to provide |||||| studies funded by vested interests. It's investigation and |||||| studies (not just referenced, but with links to the data) using |||||| the scientific method. I'm 65 and a retired electrical engineer |||||| so my position is founded on both education and experience. |||||| |||||| Glenn ||||| ||||| ||||| I have you by 5 yrs and with due respect, your electrical ||||| background is not relevant to engine oil. My background in the ||||| past 22 yrs professionally is in automotive and truck ||||| service/repair followed by 10 yrs driving line haul OTR. |||| |||| But it's not science. Of course my background isn't relevant to |||| oil, that's why my criticism was about lack of science. I made |||| no attempt to answer the question about intervals. Science, is |||| the only way we can determine answers to questions like that in |||| the subject. Your experience is of little use. There was no |||| control. There was no documenting of data points. There was no |||| statistical analysis of the data. There was no effort to |||| randomize the samples. There was no review. It's only what you |||| remember and memory drops data points where science doesn't |||| (unless of course it's biased reporting by those motivated by |||| profits). |||| |||| Glenn ||| ||| ||| Glenn, this is a REAL OLD subject in this and several other ||| automotive and truck forums. You're a "johnny come lately." So in ||| order for you to save face, I'm going to let you have the last word ||| on the subject of oil changing. || || I don't want or need the last word, I want you to understand || science. I want you to realize that your experience doesn't || qualify you to generalize about oil change intervals. I want you || to understand that your attitude is symptomatic of the failures || of our education system which has led to so many job exports, to || an economy in shambles, to a political system of smoke and || mirrors, to religions that want to rule the world, etc. Mostly I || want you to listen when someone argues with you and for you to || refrain from personal attacks. In this case, you are out of line || and should apologize to Nobody Important for he is right and you || are wrong -- unequivocally. || || Glenn
Up your ass, Glenn.
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"Philip" wrote:

With all due respect, being old and having driven a truck doesn't make you an expert on engine oil either. And 22 years in the automotive truck service/repair industry, might only mean you changed tires. I know some really good, honest, trustworthy mechanics that I would trust to repair my car, but when it comes to oil, they know about as much as a sixth grader.Heck, I fix popcorn all the time, and I have no idea why it does what it does.
Being old doesn't make you stupid, but it doesn't make you right either. The world has changed a lot in the last 50 years. All too often the advice I see promolagted in internet automotive groups is based on what worked for someone's Father or Grandfather. I know I love my Dad dearly, and he had over 50 years of experience maintaining farm equipment, but I would not depend on his ideas on oil as far as I can throw him. "Trust but verify" is a good idea when it comes to things you say, or Mike says, or even what I say.
Ed
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C. E. White wrote:

Such is far from the case so your bluster falls on deaf ears.
--

- Philip @ Maximum Torque RPM





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Glenn wrote: || On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 00:59:33 GMT, "Philip?"
|| ||| Nobody Important wrote: |||| Philip? wrote:
||||| message ||||| ||||| Well, I use synthetic on my 99 Camry and use a 6,000 km change ||||| interval. No car was ever damaged from having too MANY oil ||||| changes but LOTS of engines have been damaged from too FEW ||||| changes. The lube value of the oil lasts a LOT longer than the ||||| ability of the oil to HOLD the dirt in suspension. ||||| ||||| Change it already. Even syn oil is much cheaper than a new |||||| engine. ||||| ||||| ||||| This is one of those rare and concise posts that hits ALL the ||||| salient concerns about oil servicing. |||| |||| rare and concise? I see only platitudes without supporting |||| evidence. |||| Changing oil more frequently than necessary ||| ||| Then my young idealistic friend, you need to define what "more ||| freqently than necessary" means. ||| ||| The rest of your post is juvenile rubbish. || || Sorry, but it's science. Without independent evidence all we || have is the manufactures trying to maximize their profits. It || does no good to claim authority, no good to site personal || experience, no good to relate folk tales and no good to provide || studies funded by vested interests. It's investigation and || studies (not just referenced, but with links to the data) using || the scientific method. I'm 65 and a retired electrical engineer || so my position is founded on both education and experience. || || Glenn
How does ELECTRICAL engineering relate to engine lubrication? Answer: it does NOT.
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Truth with a dorsal fin wrote:

But, good engineering practices do relate across all fields.
Ed
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Nobody Important wrote: || Philip wrote:
||| message ||| |||| Well, I use synthetic on my 99 Camry and use a 6,000 km change ||| ||| interval. No ||| |||| car was ever damaged from having too MANY oil changes but LOTS of ||| ||| engines ||| |||| have been damaged from too FEW changes. The lube value of the oil ||| ||| lasts a ||| |||| LOT longer than the ability of the oil to HOLD the dirt in ||| ||| suspension. ||| |||| Change it already. Even syn oil is much cheaper than a new engine. ||| ||| ||| ||| This is one of those rare and concise posts that hits ALL the ||| salient concerns about oil servicing. || || rare and concise? I see only platitudes without supporting evidence. || Changing oil more frequently than necessary is a waste of money, time || and recycling resources. In the special case of a brand new car, it || causes poor engine run-in.
Following the advice of the dealer, I used regular oil until 24,000 kilometres, THEN switched to synthetic. Who ARE YOU to day how *I* should use my time or money?
|| || OPtimally, people should cite studies, similar to the one I cited, or || refuting studies to try and help us decide what a reasonable || synthetic oil change interval is based on EVIDENCE.
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SNIP

I have followed many a discussion about oil on different newsgroups and I must say that this subject is one of the most debated one. Studies about oil are fine but, bear in mind that all synthetic oils aren't created equal, as is the case with dino oil. Plus, how we all drive and in what conditions have to be taken into consideration. One thing is sure, yes, you can drive the distance from here to the moon on dino oil if you drain it regularly. But synthetic oil is far superior to dino because it reduces friction. We all know that reduced friction means reduced wear and better fuel mileage, among all the benefits. For example, in the winter, my car starts like in the summer time. So, my battery will also last longer. No need to plug it. So, reduced electricity consumption. I don't need science and studies to prove it to me. My anecdotal evidence is enough study for me. :-) I have always extended oil drain intervals beyond what is thought to be reasonnable by most people and never had an oil related problem. Car dealers make profits with oil changes and can tell us pretty much anything they want because we will believe them. After all, aren't they the "specialists"? This my opinion folks. I am open to discussion. You can flame me if you want but it would not be constructive. Don't need a "study" to prove that. (wink wink) ;-)
Best
JP
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