Toyota in the News (hesitation 5 spd)

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Hesitation issue goes beyond Toyota's luxury line

Friday, December 10, 2004 By Don Hammonds, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Toyota engineers are working to find an acceptable fix for a hesitation problem in five-speed automatic transmissions in certain of its luxury Lexus and Toyota models, the Japanese automaker said yesterday.

The problem was brought to light this week when the Post-Gazette reported on troubles McMurray resident Timothy W. Farabaugh was having with his 2004 Lexus ES330 ("Hesitating Lexus unsettling for owners," Dec. 8, 2004). The vehicle didn't respond immediately when his wife pressed the accelerator while trying to merge into traffic, causing her to narrowly avoid an accident.

It became clear the problem was more widespread when other readers who saw Wednesday's PG story reported the same hesitation with their Toyotas and other Lexus models.

It turns out that the five-speed automatic in the 2002 to

2004 Lexus ES300 and ES330 models also is used in the Toyota Highlander and Lexus RX330 sport utility models, two of the company's biggest sellers.

"The engineers in Japan are trying to come up with a fix on this problem ... The first attempt to solve this has not been completely successful," said Toyota spokesman Wade Hoyt. That first attempt "involved reprogramming the computer that controls the transmission," he added.

The reprogramming "relieved part of the problem, but did not completely cure it,'' he said -- a statement with which Alvise Anti of Pittsburgh can concur.

She said her RX330 had the "update -- Lexus calls it the fix -- but obviously it's not working. The car is drivable, but if you are not aware of the problem, it can be dangerous."

Another owner, Beth Caldwell, said her 2004 Toyota Highlander V-6 with the five-speed automatic transmission had the same hesitation problem and that when she took it to the dealer's service department, she was told "that's how the new transmissions are."

Scott McAliley said he got a similar response when he approached his dealer about his 2004 Lexus ES330. He said the dealer told him that, "a.), They couldn't find anything out of the ordinary and b.), The problem would diminish over time as the computer learned our habits."

One 2002 ES330 owner, Michael Moran, said he "made contact with the customer service department at Lexus headquarters in California, which led to a test drive of my car and a resultant confirmation of the malfunctioning transmission.

"I was offered a new 2004 ES330 for $4,000, an offer I unfortunately accepted. ... The 2004 ES330 model I am now driving has an even more pronounced malfunctioning transmission."

There have been no reports of serious or fatal accidents because of the problem.

Spokesman Brad Nelson said that once Toyota comes up with a successful fix, it may issue a technical service bulletin to dealers so they could make repairs on cars when they are brought in or launch a service campaign that would notify owners that there is an issue and that the problem can be corrected.

Hoyt said he believed that only drivers who were unusually sensitive to their cars' shifts and performance would notice the hesitation.

Reply to
.Philip.
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Well, well......good to see that Toyota is acknowledging this problem. IS it fixing the problem permanently?

NOW.......when will Toyota acknowledge that the engine oil sludge problem is NOT an owner-blame phenomenon? WHEN will the owners get an apology and an extended warranty instead of an "oil gelation program?"

Charlene Blake snipped-for-privacy@erols.com

Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution

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.Philip. wrote:

Reply to
cblake

I have a 2005 Camry with the 4 cylinder engine. Is it subject to the sludging problem as well?

Don in Tracy, Calif.

Reply to
RVerDon

There is no sludging problem on any Toyota engine if the proper services are performed. Just make sure you follow the recomendations in your owners manual. Some things that are not explicitly explained in the manual cause some people confusion such as what is severe or extreme operating conditions. If you don't know what these are just ask in the NG. HTH, davidj92

Reply to
davidj92

It was a problem in some 6 cylinder engines. You would have received a letter from Toyota if you had one of the bad engines. Toyota claims that the problem will not occur with diligent oil changes.

Reply to
Art

Even

of

meant

intervals.

on

I bought a '96 4 cyl which turned out to have a moderate build-up of black tarry type substance inside the engine. It had been repaired also. The sump had been removed and replaced, no doubt to clean-out a build-up of sludge. The thing is, to allow the engine to get into this condition would take a significant degree of abuse with respect to oil-change intervals.

What we are really looking at here is a tendency for high-efficiency toyota engines with their greater head temperatures, to cause oil decomposition

*well into* the area of oil-change-abuse, but not as tolerant as other examples.

In other words, Toyota put economy and power as paramount, particularly with the 5SFE and sister engine-V6s. This engineering emphasis, meant Toyota had to increase the operating temperature of the heads (where combustion occurs). There was no problem provided the oil-change intervals were heeded,..but given these intervals were extended by the owner, then oil-breakdown occured ealier than with a comparitively lower-tech engine sunjected to the same abuse.

The actual mechanism they used to increase head-operating temp was (as far as I know) to slow down the return of overhead gear lubricating oil to the sump.

Jason

Reply to
Jason James

No more so than the "affected" earlier year range. Do your oil changes at no longer than 5,000 miles ... and you'll have nothing to fear.

--

  - Philip
Reply to
.Philip.

First. Your engine does NOT have hydraulic lifters so let the record show you have a modicum of understanding about your engine's internals. The percentage of "affected" V6s that actually filed a sludge claim is about 1 tenth of one percent of nearly 3.3 million such engines. Can you just accept the fact that these few engines were in all likelihood subjected to oil services that were inappropriate to the use they were subjected to?

A well known and thanks to the INternet ... often repeated rumor.

Your expectations don't mesh with the build specifications. Whose fault is that? You might want to compare the current oil service specs with the ones for a 1998 model.

--

  - Philip
Reply to
.Philip.

Agreed

First you blame the previous owner with lack of service, now you blame Toyota for an alledged design problem.

FYI, oil break-down and sludge are entirely different results. One is caused by too much heat and one is caused by not enough heat. I bet you know which result is related to which cause.

Would you be so kind as to post your source for this information. I've never seen it except in conjecture such as yours. davidj92

Reply to
davidj92

Doesn't sound like I have a problem as I change oil and filter between 3 and

4 thousand miles. Just old fashioned I guess.

Don in Tracy, Calif.

Reply to
RVerDon

No, and I thought I made it clear ie 1. All the engines which suffered from sludge could not have been oil-changed at the recommended intervals,...2. given one of these engines has been abused and run beyond the time and.or mileage for oil change, I made the observation that the increased head-temps gave the 'kicker' to an already bad situation. That is not blaming Toyota at all, rather I d prefer the economy and efficiency any day AND change the oil as indicated.

Jason

caused

which

never

Reply to
Jason James

Oops, I've upset Philip. Sorry Phil. Keep calm now ;-]] I think you meant to say I *don't* have a modicum (means "moderate amount") of understanding about my engine.

That's not all I did wrong either, Phil is quite correct in that the V6 does not have hydraulic lifters with the teeny little hole that can get blocked. Don't know what I was thinking there, I had a brain snap. My apologies to anyone that believed that nonsense (leaves Phil out).

I also shouldn't have expected Phil or more than a few other people to know what the NRMA was either. The National Roads and Motorists' Association is like the AAA here in Oz. They had a technical advice service which I contacted before buying my Camry, and I was warned that I should be diligent about oil and filter changes. More than a rumour they reckoned.

All in all I think I've fallen into the very sin I was lecturing Phil about. I'll stop wasting space then, how about you, Phil?

Geoff

Reply to
Geoff

Jason, All the Toyota engines that suffered sludge was 1/10 of 1 percent of all engines Toyota manufactured which is a very small number. Whatever the number is, documentation shows almost all of the sufferers wouldn't/couldn't show proof of proper service. Because of all the publicity Toyota stepped up with an extension of warranty if you could prove you had serviced the engine in the last year, just once in the past year. I think you have to admit this is pretty generous, compared to trying to get one of the Big Three to even consider this type of customer service. (I have a lot of experience with this example). Sludge is caused by lack of heat which leaves moisture in the oil to foam, solidify and accumulate. Oil breakdown is caused by excess heat. These are two different results from two different causes, so your increased head temp analogy doesn't compute. I still don't know where any facts are available saying Toyota had a design problem which caused excess head temperature. Wouldn't you agree if this were so, Toyota would have suffered an abnormal amount of head and/or head gasket failures? Something close to what the Big Three experiences? Ask any head rebuilder which heads they rebuild most. Toyota and Honda are at the bottom of the list. davidj92

Reply to
davidj92

Bravo, davidj92!! Press on!

--

  - Philip
Reply to
.Philip.

I said what I meant. You displayed only a modicum of knowledge on the subject. Were you fully informed ... well, nuff said.

That is akin to believing a nightly news ancho is 'informed' ... when in fact Britain calls these people what they really are ... "news readers." Teleprompter and all that. Officer workers at your AAA / NRMA are disseminators of print information ... not technicians.

Were I in your league, yes.

--

  - Philip
Reply to
.Philip.

Here is the key phrase--"It became clear the problem was more widespread when other readers who saw Wednesday's PG story reported the same hesitation with their Toyotas and other Lexus models."

Toyota doesn't want anyone to know anything about ANY major, widespread problem in any of its vehicles! The reason is because lots and lots of other owners would come forward if the issues were presented to a wide audience. This is especially true in the case of the ENGINE OIL SLUDGE problem affecting at least 3.3 million Toyota vehicles.

Hopefully, Toyota will handle this issue far better than it has handled and continues to handle the oil sludge issue. Toyota continues to BLAME THE OWNERS for the sludge problem. Toyota has some "proprietary data" that shows that the owners are to blame, but it isn't going to show this data to anyone citing "trade secrets." HOW CAN THIS COMPANY GET AWAY WITH THIS?!?

Toyota needs to fess up....the quality of its vehicles isn't what it touts it to be! Toyota isn't interested in the customer after the sale! All it is concerned about is its own bottom line!

Some Toyota owners are fed up. They have signed a petition stating the same. This is only a small fraction of the vehicle owners who have come forward. There were thousands of Toyota owners posting on "The Complaint Station for Toyota" before that site went down. There were thousands of Toyota owners posting on Cartrackers.com "Forums" before that site went down. There have been thousands upon thousands of Toyota owner posts and a select group of cyber-harassers who have tried to insinuate that the Toyota owners are making up all the problems! Fishy, isn't it? Looks like freedom of speech is a figment of the imagination, thanks to the Toyota-protectors!

File your reports with the Center for Auto Safety and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. Post on appropriate forums, until the Toyota-protectors tamper with them at any rate! Start a web site to find other Toyota owners. File a report on

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Charlene Blake snipped-for-privacy@erols.com

Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution: Engine Oil Sludge (and more)

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Toyota Owners Unite for Resoluti>

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Reply to
cblake

This is absolutely a FALSE statement. I don't have to resort to profanity as Phillip has done. The truth will stand on its own.

Proper maintenance does NOT guarantee no sludge! This has been confirmed by countless Toyota owners who have all oil change receipts. These engines need far more than every 5,000 mile oil changes. Why....even every 3,000 mile oil changes does NOT prevent the problem. Those who have changed their oil every 3,000 miles, by and large, did get more mileage, but far too many of these same vehicles had failed engines with less than 100,000 miles. Simple fact.

I do not think it is right to mislead others by stating globally that proper service will result in no sludge. What proof do you have of this truly? I'd be interested in seeing it.

Charlene Blake snipped-for-privacy@erols.com

Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution: Engine Oil Sludge

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Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution MSN Communities group

davidj92 wrote:

the

services are

owners

cause

Reply to
cblake

Art, Toyota did not send out all 3.3 million owner letters. Far too many owners never received the letter despite being in the same location since vehicle purchase! Toyota stopped mailing out the letters in the first wave......remember the very critical letter that owners felt was a slap in the face? It then stopped sending out the second letter, too! Guess it didn't want to duly inform these owners as promised. Bruce C. Ertmann said that all 3.3 million letters would be mailed out. WHY weren't they? This is the question many Toyota owners want to know!

The affected engines include the 6-cylinder engines as well as the Camry 4-cylinder engine that is no longer produced.....seems it cooked the oil to a black crisp! Toyota has "claimed" a lot, but the owners dispute much of it.....including the part about this being a problem with the maintenance! The owners believe that they are being used as scapegoats in this major engine problem.

Charlene Blake snipped-for-privacy@erols.com

Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution

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Art wrote:

a

that

has

change

to do

the

Reply to
cblake

Again, absolutely FALSE! Proper oil changes does not ensure no sludge. This is documented by countless Toyota owners.

Why would Toyota limit the engines in the so-called "Engine Oil Gelation Progrm" if this was just a matter of maintenance? Why limit the model years?

Global statements that sludge won't happen with proper oil changes are just not true. You are giving false hope (intentionally?) by making such statements.

Charlene Blake snipped-for-privacy@erols.com

Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution

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.Philip. wrote:

oil

the

changes at

Reply to
cblake

What is this so-called abuse oil change interval exactly? Are you saying that the oil changes within the recommended period (manufacturer dictated) are too long?

If so, then why would this be an owner problem? If not, then why are owners who DID change the oil as recommended still getting sludge? Why were owners who had every 3,000 mile oil changes still finding sludge buildup?

This emphasis on oil change interval is just a smokescreen. The owners who have produced proper oil change receipts have still had sludge or blown engines through no fault of their own. Toyota is blaming all owners and accusing owners of faking oil change receipts and worse. Toyota is NOT STANDING BEHIND THE PRODUCT.

Toyota is trying to properly maintain its bottom line by IMPROPERLY TREATING ITS CUSTOMERS!!

Charlene Blake snipped-for-privacy@erols.com

Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution

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Reply to
cblake

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