Toyota in the News (hesitation 5 spd)

Please see my comments below. There is a great deal of misinformation in this post. Based on Phillip's commendation of this post, I suspect the SPIN is intentional?

Charlene Blake snipped-for-privacy@erols.com

Toyota Owners Unite for Resoluti> Jas> >>> I bought a '96 4 cyl which turned out to have a moderate build-up

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Yes, Toyota has some blame to accept. The problem is that it isn't willing to take any.

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And WHERE does this data come from? Will you please cite the source of the erroneous information? Are you really using that outdated figure that Toyota gave back in 2002??? Toyota said that it had only 3,200 Toyota owner complaints. Then.....suddenly that figure got translated into some statistical figure for the *actual incidence rate*. What kind of SPIN is that?!? The complaint figure has not been verified to begin with by anyone other than Toyota. The number of complaints formally written does not equal the incidence rate under ANY stretch of the imagination. As a matter of fact, one would have to EXTRAPOLATE from that figure to get the TRUE INCIDENCE RATE of the problem.

Let's not forget that Toyota went several YEARS without telling the truth about this problem. It allowed owner after owner to go away frustrated to seek help elsewhere. These numbers were NOT crunched, were they? The number of complaints was tabulated at 3,200 in 2002 BEFORE any articles were written and before any information was given out by Toyota itself! That number has been growing for the past three years!! The number of affected vehicles is 3.3 million (conservative as it doesn't include the Corolla which is also having the sludge problem.....not to mention the other models), so the case numbers far exceed any number given publicly by Toyota. Are we naive enough to think that Toyota doesn't know this?!?

Any were is the proof that the owners *couldn't show proof* of the oil changes? What kind of SPIN is this?!? This is not the case. Plenty of owners with oil change receipts were shown the door and said that their vehicle didn't qualify for the repairs. Indeed, owners say that they have been lied to by Toyota dealerships saying that the didn't have sludge when they DID!!

Lastly, what is this "warranty extension" information? Please cite the source of this information. The original warranty was denied in all the original cases of sludge. Are you saying that there is something written now that says that the warranties are extended? The so-called "Engine Oil Gelation Program" isn't a real warranty extension at all, is it? So why the SPIN here, too?

Generous? NOT WHEN YOU DISQUALIFY MORE CASES THAN YOU QUALIFY! Toyota owners are fed up with being denied coverage behind the scene. These owners have heard every excuse in the book and then some! Toyota is doing just as it pleases when no one is watching! And...by the way....exactly WHO is monitoring what Toyota is doing? Do you think the NHTSA is doing this? Is the EPA? Who is overseeing what Toyota does AFTER the initiation of these so-called generous and unprecedented programs?

I guess there are more tough questions for Toyota. Toyota doesn't want to answer them, though. It seems to prefer the SPIN on this issue!

foam,

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head temp

OK. Fine. Then, tell me what would cause the hot spots in an engine with premature oil breakdown? How about excessive fuel in the engine oil? How about dramatically-lowered TBN? Why would the viscosity be decreased within the 3,000 mile oil change interval? So what is up with that?

Are you saying that you can't have sludge with excessive heat? Will excessive heat over time lead to sludge? What if the oil is broken down prematurely time and time again? Are you going to see sludge then? Why are plenty of highway drivers getting sludge?

Let's explore this "oil breakdown" theory and Toyota sludge further. Your simple explanation is insufficient based on the reported Toyota owners cases.

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Honda are

Are you saying that Toyota doesn't have a head gasket problem? Are you aware of the number of Toyota 4-Runners out there with repeat gasket problems? There is a so-called generous head gasket program for them. The problem is that if there is a repeat.....and rest assured that after 60,000 miles or so, there is.......these owners are left holding the bag! Toyota and head gasket problems go hand in hand, don't they?

By the way, are the Big Three vehicles also having an ENGINE OIL SLUDGE problem? If so, why aren't we hearing about it? Chrysler and VW have problems, we know. Hmmmm......I thought Toyota was better than these? What's wrong with this picture?

I am all for TRUTH and the SPIN I see surrounding the Toyota sludge problem is far too thick! I sense that the wool is being pulled over the buying public's eyes!

Charlene Blake snipped-for-privacy@erols.com

Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution

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Reply to
cblake
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NO! This is NOT true! Are you trying to publicly claim that the original number of owner complaints given by Toyota is the actual number of "sludge claims?" This is totally outdated and unconfirmed information! Has Toyota published the number of owners who have ASKED for coverage under this program and been DENIED? OR....it Toyota only documenting the vehicles that didn't have all the oil changes done at a Toyota dealership? You do KNOW that this is one way that Toyota has been claiming that the oil change receipts can't be produced, don't you? If the owner isn't in the dealership's database, then Toyota says the oil change wasn't done.....how convenient is that?!?

Toyota has some FUZZY MATH practices going on which help it to SPIN this misinformation about the incidence rate of sludge in its own vehicles. It is all untrue and an insult to all those who have come forward SINCE the initiation of the so-called generous program.

Phillip, I really can't fathom how you can cite this erroneous information that has no statistical relevance whatsoever. Well, actually, since you also choose to defame and use profanity, maybe I can understand! I am so sorry that this is what you need to resort to in order to help Toyota! Toyota must be very desperate.

Charlene Blake snipped-for-privacy@erols.com

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Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution

Reply to
cblake

It is rumored that Toyota is committing fraud on its valued customers in the engine oil sludge debacle. It is rumored that Toyota has issued a false claim that it will remedy this situation for the affected owners when it has no intention of doing so. It is rumored that "Toyota protectors" are the ones who have been cyberstalking the most vocal Toyota owners online and defaming them non-stop. It is rumored that the "Toyota protectors" have help shut down the sites where thousands of Toyota owners have posted in an effort to share similar experiences. It is rumored that Toyota will do anything it can to stop the flow of information among its vehicle owners....especially if the information is about widespread and known problems.

It is a FACT that Toyota issued an "Engine Oil Gelation" program, changed the baffle on the affected engines, and convinced the government that it was "doing the right thing." It is also a FACT that Toyota did NOT do as it claimed it would do. Is Toyota guilty of appeasing the government in order to get it off its back? Does Toyota know more than it is sharing?

It is a FACT that there is a great deal of SPIN in this matter that serves to make the Toyota owners the guilty party and Toyota the "good guy." The experience of the Toyota vehicle owners shows quite the opposite, however.

Charlene Blake snipped-for-privacy@erols.com

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Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution

Reply to
cblake

More of YOUR FUZZY LOGIC. As you have been asked many times before and refused, show your DOCUMENTATION. Not conjecture by some wordsmith but actual substantiated facts. As more and more people use and become familiar with postings in Toyota related ng's they are laughing at you and your rantings. Have you noticed how almost no one responds to your posts anymore? Get a clue. davidj92

Reply to
davidj92

snip

Blakes Dictionary: Harass: To hold a differing position based on facts and not back down in the face of imaginary wishful contrived drivel.

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  - Philip
Reply to
Philip

Well I'll chime in to partially disagree with you, too. I have nothing to gain or lose by saying that lack of maintenance is to blame for the sludge issue. Just because America grew up and became accustomed to 170 degree thermostat, .003" cylinder clearance, poorly casted engines doesn't mean the times are going to stand still. Changes for the better in machining and design have steadily occured and will continue to do so until the end of time. Mistakes will be made along the road of improvement (see Chrysler, Ford, and GM for the most examples) but triumphs will be had by everyone at one time or another. At least Toyota has taken the high road in terms of quality build throughout their existence. When they make mistakes they are the first (IMHO) to rectify them. They have submitted recalls where other manufactures wouldn't even acknowledge a problem under 3/36 in a similar case. They have put very extended terms on recalls and given service managers incredible free range to make out-of-warrantee decisions in favor of the customer. I shake my head at the lengths they'll go to sometimes when a customer gets something for nothing because they complain. [keep in mind your warrantee is an agreement by both parties] It seems it's these same people who are going to take this goodwill for granted the most when it comes time for a new car purchase. That's my gut feeling on it, but lets not fool ourselves into thinking that Toyota or anyone else grants goodwill for any other reason that to reward their bottom line eventually.

Sludge can be a problem in every engine that receives inadequate oil changes. I've seen it -- I'm sure a lot more than you have. I also know a hell of a lot about car repair -- from experience and willingness to learn. Its no skin off my nose if Toyota is right or wrong in this case. Infact I defend the owners to a certain extent in that all manufacturers have got into a 'maintenance war' in the last 10 years or so; each one tries to make their line look like it requires the least maintenance. While they are all offering practically the same technology, their marketing strategists say "hey, lets fudge the 3750 O/C interval up to 5000 miles. No wait, make it 7500 miles! Do I hear

10,000?" Do you think the difference in today's API oil grade of J is that improved over grade H or grade G in the 90's? Do you think that improvements in fuel economy and manufacturing tolerences warrant doubling oil change intervals? I don't. So what's the difference then? Possibly marketing BS? I think so.

That's what I would blame the manufacturers for (not just Toyota). It does shame me that the company I work for engages in this deceptive practice, but consumers need to be aware of it. I tell this to anyone that asks my opinion on maintenance, and whether or not they adhere to the "extreme driving schedule" is their call.

Toyota MDT in MO

Reply to
Comboverfish

snip

The sources were all posted appx two years or so ago when you first started with this. Several BBB's, NHTSA and other sources were cited. You ignored them then and I would expect if I went to the trouble to source them you would ignore them again. OK, let's assume I'm wrong on the actual numbers of owners with problems. Why aren't repair shops overrun with Toyota's with sludge problems. I've worked in the auto repair industry for over 40 years and network with many of the local shops including at least one dealer from any name brand you can buy. This includes the local Toyota dealer and I have NEVER seen or heard of a Toyota with a sludge problem that wasn't due to owner neglect. I subscribe to a world-wide database of repair issues and can't recall seeing any post related to Toyota sludge that wasn't followed up by discovery of owner neglect. SPIN THAT.

And your proof of this is? You have a database that CRUNCHED these alledged numbers? Would you cite it, please? Please don't bore me with more of yours' or other wordsmiths' conjectures. Only post your actual experience or supported data.

Are we naive enough to think you can document this? Do we think your word is gospel? What is the total number of engines Toyota has manufactured? Is it close to 3.3M? If so, why isn't almost every Toyota stranded by the problems you alledge?

This group is populated by many Toyota tech's and MDT's that are anonymous, therefore have nothing to lose, and will not support this. If I didn't service my engine and it suffered a catastrophic failure do you think I'm going to tell the world I didn't service it? No, I'd be just like you and try to get Toyota to give me something for free. I might even go so far as I suspect many of these persons you offer as proof and lie. Then again, I bothered to know what the correct service intervals are for my driving habits and service accordingly, so I don't have to worry about this. And YES, I have looked inside my Toyota engines and found no sludge.

Yes, I am the owner of two Toyota's currently and recieved the letter from Toyota. I have my wife's Camry oil/filter service done at the dealer so the point was mute as they have records and I have reciepts for the service. I do all the other service on the Camry as well as all the service on my Tundra myself and keep all my reciepts for oil, filters and fluids. I have only been challenged on reciepts by one dealer in my life in an engine warranty dispute and that was not a Toyota dealer, it was one of the ones you cite later in this post.

The letter I recieved was truly an offer of an extended warranty from Toyota Motor Corporation. I would assume it was valid at my local Toyota dealership. The service manager at the local Toyota said their service business was up astronomically after the letter so I would assume many of the Toyota customer base believed it to be true as well and were CYA's.

YES. And quite a bit more than any of the Big Three would be willing to give you. Something you would know if you were more enlightened. Something I've fought in the 40+ years I've turned wrenches in a fleet.

Data, not conjecture, to support this is where?

Why then are you one of the few we hear from? This rant has been going on for a couple of years now so I've seen several owner's complain on this NG as well as other venues. I don't recall ANY of them including YOU that would/could offer proof of your service and I do recall owners' refusals on several instances to provide this proof.

The consumer is monitoring Toyota. They are monitoring when Toyota is watching and when Toyota isn't watching. They make a judgement call based on their observations, data input and etc. Many will even consider this rant and all the other rants about sludge and make an educated or otherwise decision based on their thought processes. (They may think, "This allegation has been going on for a long time and all I see are Toyota's running up and down the road. I don't hear any Toyota owner I know of complaining about sludge, in fact, all they do is brag about their Toyota). Then they cast their vote by purchase. Recent information in the business section of local paper says Toyota is soon to be one of the Big Three. They have grown from a very small company to almost one of the big three due to consumer's watching them and making an educated decision.

Do you

The consumer is overseeing with the most powerful penalty that can be exacted on any company. Dollars, dineros, pounds, francs, liras, euros and etc.

Toyota did answer with the letter that offered an extended warranty. No spin, only facts. That's what facts are Ms. Blake, substantiated data. Not conjecture or wordsmithing such as you offer - SPIN THAT.

No, fuel in the oil system would not cause hot spots. It would dilute the oil until it is cooked out. Can you remember gas is a product of oil so it would mix with the oil in an equal dilution, not in one spot only? If an engine is not brought up to a full operating temperature and maintained for 20-30 minutes, on a regular basis then the fuel that is naturally in the oil due to the mechanical design of all internal combustion engines will accumulate in the sludge and exacerbate the problem. This type of driving is classified as extreme duty or hard duty and oil change intervals should be shortened accordingly. Same with every engine manufacture I know of.

See my previous paragraph. The only proof I know of is your post some months ago alledging they found gasoline in your oil when it was analysed. Myself and several others that work on large diesels know that fuel is always present in the oil as oil analyses is a regular part of diesel service, it's the amount of fuel present that can be a red flag. When you were informed of this and asked to provide the percentage of fuel you refused, just as you have always done.

Excess heat does NOT cause sludge. Excess heat over time does NOT cause sludge. Sludge is caused by oil not being brought up to operating temps and sustained for a 20-30 interval so as to evaporate or cook the liquids, ie: H2O as moisture and fuel, out of the oil. Excess heat will cause oil to break down and execute premature mechanical wear and/or failure. Heads and/or head gaskets would be one of the major indicators of excess heat in an engine. Valves and/or valve components failure would be one of the major indicators of oil breakdown. Two more things Toyota is NOT guilty of.

Again, NO. If you were as well versed as you want people to believe you are you wouldn't even bother to ask this question.

More conjecture, not based on any facts.

Again, conjecture. Not base on any facts. My simple explanation is based on Auto Mechanics 101, gazillions of combined experience that is shared throughout the automotive/trucking industry and the consumers' opinions based on experiences.

Toyota may be having a problem with one of their models.. If this same engine is in several platforms then the issue would probably be with the platform and not the engine. I still stand by me claim due to information I have personally gotten from two different head rebuilders. I also know that cooling system maintenance is as important to the longevity of the cooling system as oil/filter service is to sludge prevention. I have seen many cooling system failures and a large percentage of them is attribituble to neglect. Have you serviced your cooling system Ms. Blake? Here's a plan: ignore it and when it blows up blame Toyota for it.

If what you say is true concerning Chrysler and VW where are their offers to extend the owners' warranty? What customer service have they extended to eliminate any customer problems. Toyota made the offer and in my opinion that makes them better than any other vehicle manufacture I have ever had experience with. I was in a Dodge dealership service department recently and the wall was covered with customer opinions. (I'm told Chryco makes them do this). Over 75% of the opinions were negative or had a negative comment. Their overall customer rating was less than 40%. Recently I was in a Toyota service department and out of all the opinions I only saw two negative comments. Does that make Toyota better? The customer vote, does it count Ms. Blake? I think I see what the eyesore is in this picture, Ms. Blake.

If this was based on any fact Toyota would be out of business as this rant has been going on for at least two years, plenty long enough for the buying public to assimilate all the information they need to cast their vote. It is more of your conjecture and SPIN and the proof is Toyota is gaining in customer base, rapidly gaining on the big three.

As a sidenote I offered this rebuttal to Ms. Blake for the sake of the new users of this NG and not Ms. Blake. In the past she has ignored facts and refuses to reply with anything other than conjecture and assumptions. Read her posts and decide for yourselves. Watch this thread to see how she replies, if as in the past it will be with more figures out of the thin air that can not be substantiated. davidj92

Reply to
davidj92

Actually, for YOU, that seems perfectly true as it stands to reason that you cannot count. LOL!!!

Reply to
jjnunes

I find it curious that you are so defensive that you continue to try and infer I'm not blaming poor oilchanging as the root cause of tar and sludge problems.

I do have a modification to that which I claimed happened to my car (before I bought it). The deposits which are vary from 1mm to 3mm thick is more a tar deposit than exclusively sludge. I was wrong there,..but the cause is too few oil-changes and increased oil-temperature due to some factor which I concluded was the increased head temps. This has been mentioned by several people including one in the NG. I wont mention his name as this issue is far too inflammatory for level-headedness to prevail,..it seems.

However, I repeat,..there is no problem as long as the recommended oil-change intervals are observed.

Jason

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Reply to
Jason James

She has not "gotten away" with anything. Sludge was a dominant discussion here some time ago and Charlene was summarily dismissed for the troll that she is. Now days, a visit from her is like mud. Better to ignore it, let it dry, and just fleck it off later than to make a bigger mess wiping it off while still wet. Remember, old sows like Charlene bring their own mud to a mud wrestle.

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  - Philip
Reply to
Philip

Boring

Reply to
Geoff

Sludge was a dominant discussion

Phil, You are correct and I'm going to once again heed your advice and ignore her spins. It seems most people are ignoring her as well. Thanks, davidj92

Reply to
davidj92

600 Foci have a bad cruise control cable, and Ford is roasted. 50,000 Toyotas have the same sort of problem - and who hears about it? 250,000 Saturn Vues are recalled becasue of a problem in a NHTSA stability test (no real world incidents), and GM is roasted Almost 300,000 4Runners are recalled becasue of defective rear suspension - who hears about it?

Ed

Reply to
C. E. White

"Ford is roasted" "GM is roasted"

Toyota does not get "roasted" Toyota Japanese. Japanese get "flied"

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  - Philip
Reply to
Philip

First off, my apologies for failing to reply to Charlene (I think) or whoever the anti-Toyota lobbyist is around here. I could have sworn I hit reply under her top post but apparently not.

Now, Those are interesting examples you pick out. Clearly in the interest of a fair comparison. For example, one model of Ford w/ no year range cruise cable campaign is compared to ALL Toyotas cruise cable campaign. I am not going to research all of the actual numbers, but here's what I know. Much of the Ford line was involved in a cruise cable recall starting in the late 90s. 53,000 Toyota 1MZ-FE engine equipped Camrys were involved in a recall. So quite a few Ford models vs. one Toyota model. And your point is apparently that Toyota doesn't get the proper blame due them? How do you blame a company when they voluntarily issue recalls when they catch the problem?

I just posted my opinion RE: every manufacturer makes mistakes. I (again) feel that Toyota stands behind their product as good or better than anyone else in the business. That is more apparent at the dealership level because of the power they give to their district reps and service managers to approve goodwill repairs.

Buy whatever you want. If you had bought a 96 - 99 Ford Explorer and suffered the poor engine design (pick an engine) and the broken blend door issue you would be SOL after the warrantee expires. Yet everyone knows those are glaring issues. (Well, the engine issue is debatable, but work on them for major repeat failures enough and then make your decision. And I mean just about any engine in their stable.) Or ask a Ford tech if they pay good warrantee times ; ) Cheers,

Toyota MDT in MO

Reply to
Comboverfish

I may be wrong but I think the point is Toyota is much more likely to recall in case of a problem. I read there were either 19 or 25 (CRS is setting in) incedences of defective ignition switches, found by Camry owners, that were manufactured in the US plant. As I remember there were no fires or major electrical problems related to faulty switch. Shortly after that we got a recall notice on our Camry for the ign. sw. replacement. I read there were thousands of Camry's that were R&R'd but don't remember an exact number. In comparison Ford was forced by feds to recall several of their platforms due to faulty ignition switches setting vehicles on fire. This happened over an appx 2 year period. Several of the Fords we have in our fleet were recalled and ign sw R&R'd. Several more were exibiting problems but local dealer refused to accomadate and an appeal to Ford was denied. We R&R'd 6-8 Fords on our own after a major electrical short in one of the problem vehicles on our dime. This is a typical way of treating customers from the big three, not just Ford. So, it's refreshing to find a company that will act proactively and go the extra distance rather than reactively and dig in their heels. davidj92

Reply to
davidj92

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remembered hearing about this a while ago on "Car Talk" so I went there and did a search. This was the first hit.

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Dear Tom and Ray:

My wife owns a 2001 Lexus RX300. Recently, we received a letter from Lexus on the subject of "engine oil gelling." The following is an exact quote from the letter: "Engine oil gelling occurs when old, dirty oil becomes thick and no longer adequately lubricates the engine. If not properly maintained, it can lead to severe engine damage. Oil gelling is solely a maintenance issue, and we are not aware of any situation in which a properly maintained vehicle has experienced mechanical problems associated with this condition." I have never heard of "engine oil gelling." I am wondering whether this is a smokescreen for Lexus dealers who have used a higher-viscosity oil than is recommended by the manufacturer? What is your opinion on "engine oil gelling"? -- Reinhold

Ray: What's our opinion on engine oil gelling? We're in favor of it! Hey, we've got boat payments to make, too.

Tom: This is not a smokescreen for Lexus dealers, Reinhold. It's a smokescreen for the Toyota Corporation (makers of Lexus), which seems to be having a problem with its most popular engines.

Ray: What it's tastefully calling "engine oil gelling," other people are calling "sludge." The facts are in dispute. As you state, Toyota says "Sludge Happens" -- and that it only happens to people who don't change their oil and who do a lot of stop-and-go driving.

Tom: But other independent engineers claim that there is a design problem that causes some Toyota engines (mostly 3.0-liter V6s) to sludge more frequently than other manufacturers' engines. And furthermore, it shouldn't happen on low-mileage engines. What happens is that the oil turns into a paste, and the engine dies due to lack of lubrication.

Ray: We haven't done any engineering analysis ourselves, so everything we say about this is simply our opinion (are you Toyota lawyers happy now??), but it certainly looks like -- whatever the cause -- Toyota handled it poorly by trying to blame it on its customers.

Tom: Well, the customers didn't like that, and they kept on complaining. Eventually, Toyota decided that the bad PR it was getting from all the noise about its sludgy engines wasn't worth what it would pay to fix the engines, so it changed its policy.

Ray: Now Toyota says that, even though it's STILL your fault, it'll fix any sludged engine for free for eight years if you attest that you've changed the oil on time.

Tom: Toyota has also announced that it's making a manufacturing change to the V6 engine at the factory to help prevent its customers from ruining future engines. Not that there was any problem with the engine. It's just fixing it anyway.

Ray: The vehicles covered are any Toyota or Lexus from model years 1997 to

2002 that use the 3.0-liter V6 engine, and any Toyota from 1997 to 2001 that uses the 2.2-liter four-cylinder engine.

Tom: It's worth keeping in mind that, at least so far, Toyota reports about

3,400 sludgy engines out of about 3.3 million sold. So these are still excellent cars, in our opinion, and we'll continue to recommend them.

Ray: Still, Toyota should have come out right away and said: "We're sorry. You bought a Toyota because you thought it would be worry-free. This is an unusual problem on a new car, and it shouldn't have happened. We'll fix it." It took Toyota too long to do that.

Tom: We don't expect car makers to be infallible. We just expect them to own up to their mistakes. Hey, how hard can that be? We have to do it every week!

Reply to
rogerblake

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