damn allignment

On 18 Jul 2004 19:08:32 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com (Anthony) ran around screaming and yelling:

yep...your toe is not correct....that will cause the tires to "fight" each other...meaning the one with the most grip wins the "fight"...that will account for your turn in problems and wandering on the freeway... JT

Guess I lucked out on my '69 after the same procedure. I marked everything before disassembly and put it back together using the marks. Alignment is spot-on. OTOH, I'm running 165's on stock 4.5" wheels, so the alignment is potentially a little more forgiving.

Yeah, the lower ball joints were a little stiff on mine, but not as stiff as you were indicating (purchased from ac.net, also).

congrats on your job!!

How did you try to do the alignment?

With these type of measurements? AFAIK Level Plumb Square

Make sure the vehicle is level or on level ground.

(plumb) Some different tools are available to check the camber but the cheapest is a piece of string with a weight on it. Hold the string to the top of the outside of the wheel and let the weight hang down to the bottom of the wheel. Take into account the width of the weight and measure the distance of the string from both the top and bottom of the wheel. You will have to compute the numbers to give you the camber you desire, unless you want it at '0', then the measurements will be equal. ;-)

(square) to check toe-in straighten the steering wheel measure the inside of the front of the front wheels measure the inside of the rear of the front wheels what is the difference between them? If the rear has a larger number = toe-in

You can get pretty darn close! later, dave Reminder........ Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them, and you have their shoes. Frieda Norris

Dave, that was pretty much how I tried to do my allignment. I used a plumb bob (string and nut) to check camber and measured like you said for toe-in.

The problem is that it's difficult to find the exact center line of the car, and even if your measurements show the rear of the front rims to be farther apart than the fronts by the required 1/8", one of the front tires could be turning slightly, and the other could be in the wrong position. Each tire should be toed-in 1/16" towards the center line of the car, when you are SURE the wheels are exactly straight ahead.

Yes, you're right, you can get it pretty darn close. However, I don't think "pretty close" is good enough with wider stickier rubber up front. As someone else said, allignment specs have a greater tolerance for error when your tires are narrower.

I feel confident giving the job to my VW guys. They know their stuff. I feel that I have put in MORE than enough work on this job, and I'm willing to pay 60-80 bucks to have my front end put in spec for me! I'm tired of car work right now!

~Anthony

It is not easy to do a good alignment without special tools. If you decide to do the alignment yourself, you have do several trial and error attempts until you find the ride that satisfies you.

Before going to set the alignment, you MUST do the following:

1) Set the front wheel bearing preload. 2) Find the center position of the steering box and reposition the steering wheel to that center position. To find the center position on std bugs, remove the access panel behind the spare wheel. Then center aproximatelly the steering wheel, and tighten the roller set screw on the steering box. Tighten it enough, so that you just feel the wheel bind. Rotate the wheel slowlly, if the wheel begins to bind too much, untighten the set screw a bit. At some point you will feel like it clicks to a certain position. This is the center position of the steering box. Remove the steering wheel and reposition it so that it is in the center position. Then untighten the roller set screw on the steering box a bit, and set it so that the steering wheel doesn't bind when leaving the center position. Then you set the alignment so that the car goes straight when the steering wheel is in the center position you just established. 3) Have new tires or tires in good condition and even wear.

First adjust camber. You have to park the car in a level surface, let it stop slowlly, without braking hard, use the handbrake to slow down. Then adjust the camber by eye. Aim to achieve zero camber. After each adjustment, drive the car and park again to the level surface. Then check camber again. It would be better to have the camber then checked by a professional with the propper equipment, to check especially if it is the same between the two sides.

Then adjust toe in by feel: Toe in can be adjusted (and I believe it is better this way) by feel. Initially set it by eye, so that some toe in is obviouslly there, but not too much. Then decrease toe in small steps (1/4 - 1/2 of steering rod turns). Then drive the car and feel how it turns, how easy you can keep it in a straight line, if the wheel self centers. As toe in gets closer to zero, the steering wheel will feel lighter and more sensitive, and you will feel like there is more "play" in the steering. That is because the preload to the steering geometry is decreased. If you have imbalanced or bent wheels, they might start to wobble heavilly at certain speeds. Increase a bit the toe in until you feel comfortable. Drive several days and do minor adjustments. You have to find the sweet spot between sensitive steering and heavier steering wheel with predictable responce. Don't forget to secure the fasteners when you have done with your adjustments. A bit of toe in, preloads the steering components and minimizes play, and gives some weight to the steering wheel, so that you can have more precise control. Makes the wheel self center too. Too much toe in, will result in heavy steering when the road surface is rough (good quality asphalt), or unstable and like it is fighting between going left or right, when the asphalt is hot and slippery. Front wheels will brake loose easilly under hard braking if you have too much toe in.

If you have added caster shims behind the lower beam, you might find that a bit of toe out gives surprisingly good handling on routes with many curves, but it will be unstable / very sensitive at high speed.

Again, trust your eyes more than the measurements you make. When you find an adjustment that satisfies you, go to an alignment shop and have them measure what you have done.

If you are close to the specs, you are ok and keep the results so that you can restore that alignment in the future. If you are way off, then better let them set the alignment to the specs.

Bill, '67 Bug.

"Anthony" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@posting.google.com...

news:...

Not a bad thing to do, especially since your guys know ACVWs. After they set it up right, it will be easier for you to maintain.

Let me add one thing - caster shims. They help, IMHO, on any Bug. I suspect that VW didn't kick out the caster a bit just to keep steering at slow speeds a little easier, but for us they seem to be a good thing. Do others agree?

On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:16:57 -0500, "jjs" ran around screaming and yelling:

i do....caster shims, good.... JT

Yeah. Makes steering a little heavier in the parking lot but directional stability is improved at freeway speeds.

Max

My thoughts exactly! I just called the shop, and if I drop the car off in the morning on my way to work (my girl will take me the rest of the way), they will have it done by noon! Course I can't get it until

4:45, but oh well.

The best part is the complete front allignment will cost 50 bucks. I'm happy with this price. Anyway, I'll post again and let everyone know how it turns out. I've just tried doing it on my own too many times, without the correct results, or even anything close to what I'm looking for. These guys do good work, I'm comfortable with my plan...... :)

~Anthony

Caster shims are a good thing, keeps my -56 straight going flat out, something it did not before adding the shims...

Ps. The early T1's came with caster shims from the factory, but of some strange metall/alloy that seems to disintegrate with age, the beam then just being tightened up instead of having the shims replaced.

J.

On 19 Jul 2004 17:07:37 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com (Anthony) ran around screaming and yelling:

Anthony, good plan...itis difficult to do a proper alignment without the proper tools/knowledge at home...especially if the car is lowered...I, myself, actually have a set of turntables with camber/caster guage and adjustable rods for toe, at my disposal...(father in law has a bodyshop)....and having pulled some time on alignment racks in the past i do all my own alignment work...but its not really for those that don't trust themselves or don't have the tools to do it correctly.. JT

I didn't do much, really. I left the tierods intact and when reassembling the balljoints to the steering knuckle, I just lined up the camber adjusters with the little line towards the front of the vehicle.

Drives straight, doesn't pull or wander, no unusual wear patterns or anything. I did eyeball the camber with a level and it looks spot-on for both wheels. I guess I could have it checked at an alignment shop.

Altering the camber setting affects significantlly the toe-in setting. So you have to re-adjust toe-in after making changes to the camber setting.

Bill, '67 Bug.

Understood. But, the camber adjusters were both pointing forward before I took it apart. That's how I reassembled, also, which assumed the vehicle was aligned prior to disassembly (I haven't found any evidence to the contrary).

Well, I had the allignment done. They had a hell of a time getting it worked out, becuase apparently my frame head is slightly bent. The were able to get it within spec, but the caster is 2.36 on one side and .85 on the other side. (I think...I don't have the spec sheet with me now). Anyway, that's the top and the bottom of the accetable range, so the tires should not wear out funny, and the car doesn't pull.

The bent frame head also didn't allow them to set the camber at 0 like I had asked them to, for the wider tires. They got it at .45 and .56 and could not get it any closer. Apparently, one of my new trailing arms from AC.net is also bent slightly, and that caused some of the problem with the camber adjustment. Unfortunately, the AC.net trailing arms and balljoints I received were not of the usual quality that I have seen from AC.net. I hope this is only becuase the set of four reconditioned arms and BJs is a fairly new product.

Anyway, I ended up paying $96 for the whole allignment, plus the $194 I spent on parts, I guess $290 is not bad for the piece of mind that my BJ's won't let go on the freeway.

The car seems to be handling fine now, and isn't acting strange anymore, so problem solved.

As a notice to others, like the Muir book says, "Are you SURE you want to do it yourself?" when he's reffering to balljoint replacement.

It was the worst job I have ever had to do on that car! I'm glad the ordeal is over.

~Anthony

snip

Well congrats to you. It should be a relief to find out it wasn't you! ;-) Sounds like you found a good place for future alignment work, if needed.

later, dave Reminder........ Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them, and you have their shoes. Frieda Norris

On 22 Jul 2004 09:58:27 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com (Anthony) ran around screaming and yelling:

but you didn't do it all yourself...hehe...reconditioned arms complete with balljoints takes most of the work out of the job... JT

If you mean the work of taking the old arms to the shop to have new BJ's pressed in! That's what Muir said to do.

~Anthony

On 23 Jul 2004 06:18:40 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com (Anthony) ran around screaming and yelling:

muir was lazy........i mean actually doing the balljoints yourself...that is the fun part of the job... JT(who has had balljoints pressed in by others(even one vw specific business) and they pressed them in wrong...)