Re: More anti Ford BS in a Toyota NG

(I've cross-posted this to rec.autos.makers.vw.aircooled since it is becoming increasingly on topic for that group (and much less so for alt.autos.toyota). )

>>>> "Philip®" == Philip® writes:

Philip®> Dale Henderson wrote: >>>>>>> "MH" == MajorDomo writes: >>

>> Indeed today engines are built to closer tolerance then ever >>> before, but NO manufacture not even Ford machines a block or a >>> head so close that it could be assembled and run without a >>> gasket for even 330 miles, let alone 33,000 miles. Not even >>> 150K racing engines could do that, the only thing polished to >>> the kind of tolerance that would permit anywhere near that is >>> in nuclear equipment. To suggest the engine factory 'never >>> installed one on the right bank and it ran great for 32000 >>> miles' is just a bunch of BS, period. >> >>> mike hunt >> Actually air cooled Volkswagens never used a head gasket. >> Philip®> FACTUALLY incorrect.

Philip®>

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"There is a Philip®> technical bulletin published by Volkswagen in 1990 that Philip®> describes a few changes they make upon reassembly. First, Philip®> eliminate the OEM head gasket and replace it with a 1.6mm Philip®> aluminum shim (#071 101 34), or a steel one, at the base Philip®> of the cylinder between the cylinder and crankcase. Philip®> Increase the piston / cylinder clearance to ..045mm Philip®> (.0017"), +/- .005mm. Cut a 1.5mm deep oil groove in the Philip®> large end of the connecting rods into the thrust surface Philip®> on both sides to splash oil on the bottom of the Philip®> pistons. For a more detailed description of these Philip®> modifications, send an SASE to Bob Donalds, and he'll Philip®> give you a copy of the bulletin." This site is about the 2L "pancake" engines used in later vans and type 3 and 4 VW's. I'm more familiar with with the upright engines that were used in the type 1's (Beetle, Ghia, etc.) which I still believe never had a head gasket. Perhaps my original statement was too broad.

Note however that the above section recommends "eliminating the OEM head gasket" this only strengthens my point that an engine can run without a head gasket. Note also that the shim mentioned doesn't replace the gasket since it goes between the cylinder and crankcase NOT the cylinder and head.

> And they weren't built to close tolerances.

Philip®> GENERALLY speaking, liquid cooled engines have pistons Philip®> fitted to less than .025mm (.001") these days. I was responding to the OPs statement that no engine was built to close enough tolerances to run without a head gasket when the VW, which had no head gasket (or the gasket could be removed), routinely ran without one. (I assume he meant the mating surfaces matched perfectly and this has nothing to do with piston fit.).

> So an engine running a long time without a head gasket isn't >> that unbelievable.

Philip®> Piston fit is not relevant to whether or not a head Philip®> gasket is required. You would make a better argument by Philip®> saying compression is *a* determinant of the need for a Philip®> head gasket. I didn't say it was. I was only making the point that engines *CAN* run without a head gasket.

> I'm not sure about a water cooled engine that was designed to >> have a gasket though.

Philip®> They are and do. Let me restate that: I'm not sure how long a water cooled engine that was designed to have a gasket would run without one. Probably not long.

> And just to further bedazzle those who don't know what air >> cooled means they didn't have radiators either. -- Dale >> Henderson

Philip®> Dale ... Air cooled VW *do* have a "radiator" (it's Philip®> called an oil cooler) and a fan. I'd say you need to Philip®> update your data base. ;-) --

Yes I know an oil cooler is a radiator (so is a heater core and an AC evaporator or condenser for that matter) and a vital part of the cooling system on an air cooled VW. But it is not what most people think of when the term radiator is used. Philip®> - Philip @ Maximum Torque RPM

Reply to
Dale Henderson
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For the air cooled engines, the shim between the cylinder and the case is selective to ensure a flat surface for the head ... which has to cover two individual cylinders which may have slightly different heigths. You make the height measurement without the head gasket present. The engine rebuild kits still include a single head gasket for the head.

Reply to
Philip®

On Fri, 04 Jun 2004 01:07:37 GMT, "Philip®" ran around screaming and yelling:

Philip if i may borrow your line, "you need to update your database"....the barrel shims are just that, to shim the barrels...to set compression...has nothing to do with the non-existant head gasket that *does not* come in any supposed rebuild "kit"...this is in reguard to the type 1 upright engine...type 2 vehicles used the type 1 engine untill 1972..type 3 was a "pancake" variant of the type 1, so all internals(including heads without a gasket) are the same...if i am not mistaken the old 25/36hp type 1's did use a copper ring for a "head gasket"...but im not sure on that... JT

Reply to
Joey Tribiani

On Fri, 04 Jun 2004 00:31:17 -0400, Joey Tribiani ran around screaming and yelling:

to clarify even further this info is for the US market... JT

Reply to
Joey Tribiani

Hey Joey, how's the new sitcom going?

Reply to
Scott

To my knowledge, the thread has turned to air cooled, horizontally opposed fours. What are you referring to? Head gaskets are included ... I've seen the kits. The copper sealing ring is one form that the head gasket(s) have taken.

Reply to
Philip®

Head gaskets were used on Type 1 from January 1950 until December 1962 on 34 (40) HP engines and until the end of production of the 30 (36) HP engines in

1965. Any gaskets > > On Fri, 04 Jun 2004 01:07:37 GMT, "Philip®"
Reply to
Peter

On Fri, 04 Jun 2004 06:41:47 GMT, "Philip®" ran around screaming and yelling:

sorry Philip....in the aircooled circle(this post has now somehow been crossposted to Rec.autos.makers.vw.aircooled where i am readingit) everyone understands types....the type 1 vw would be the sedan("beetle") Karmann Ghia, and the "thing"... type 2 is the "bus", type 3 is the fastback/squareback/notchback and the european ghia type 4 is the 411/412...all of these vehicles use a horizonatally opposed aircooled engine....they type 1 engine(as i stated in my previous reply) was used in the type 1, the type 2 till 1972, and the type 3 throughout the run...this is again for the US market...the type

2 buses began using the type 4 engine in 1972(in the US) and went to a watercooled boxer engine in 1983...

the copper gasket was used in early engines and caused more problems than it could ever solve...type 1 engines use a metal to metal contact area and thermal expansion to seal the heads...the cylinders are steel and the heads are aluminum...this is the "seal"....

Reply to
Joey Tribiani

Of course! So the original statement that no air cooled VW ever used headgaskets is inaccurate. Thank you.

Reply to
Philip®

Philip®> Of course! So the original statement that no air cooled Philip®> VW ever used headgaskets is inaccurate. Thank you. --

Yes. Like I said before my original statement was too broad and incorrect. However, my original point still stands. That is, there were engines designed to run without a head gasket and a gasketless engine can run for more than 33,000 miles.

Reply to
Dale Henderson

On Fri, 04 Jun 2004 14:25:25 GMT, "Philip®" ran around screaming and yelling:

sometimes you should try losing gracefully? makes you look better if you do.. JT

Reply to
Joey Tribiani

Be an example. :-)

Reply to
Philip®

On Sat, 05 Jun 2004 03:14:51 GMT, "Philip®" ran around screaming and yelling:

yes sir.. JT

Reply to
Joey Tribiani

This thread is a prime example ao why it is futile to respond after the sixth or seventh post. By then the intent of the original post is long gone. Some folks simply like to comment on every post, whether they have knowledge of the original subject or not, just to be heard or disagree with some minor word or phrase in a previous posts. Buy the ninth or tenth they fall back on personal attacks or vulgarities. LOL

mike hunt

"Philip" wrote:

Reply to
BrickMason

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