Re: OT Pie unsafe at any speed

Sorry but I don't know the story, why Ralph Nader was not so friendly to the ACVW back in the 60's?? has this pie something to do with that?

Ant

Bill Berckman wrote:

Ralph considered the beetle the most unsafe designed car ever built and bashed it almost as much as the Corvair.

href="

Mr Nader wrote a book called Unsafe at Any Speed that condemmed both the Volkswagen and Corvair as vehicles unsafe for the road. The book is credited with killing off the Aircooled Corvair.

Bill Berckman

Nader's book pointed out two things about Beetles I recall - the first being the swing axle setup which can lead to unstable handling when the car is loaded down. The Corvair had a similar setup and got bashed really hard. But Chevy fixed it for good for '65 with a better rear suspension. VW fixed it too with the so-called IRS rear suspension several years later. I think Nader also talked about the tendency for the front seats to come off their tracks in rear-end collisions, effectively ejecting the passengers out thru the back window. VW finally addressed this for '73 with the sturdier seat mounts in the bug.

Nader gets a bad rap from enthusiasts and he wasn't always fair, but somebody had to point out that the auto industry needed to do more work regarding the safety of its products. The arrogance from GM and the rest of the industry towards the book when it came out, and even years later when Ford covered up the Pinto crash tests, only shows he had a point. The Corvair would have died anyway, it was expensive to build for a mainstream carmaker like GM, and it was never really competitive against the Falcon or VW even before the book trashed it, and Chevy had the Nova as its cheap little car by the mid '60s. Having said that, it's a shame GM doesn't go out on a limb like it used to, and I always thought a Corvair Monza convertible would be a great ride to have, and the styling of the Corvair remains a classic.

Any other thoughts on the book?

Charlie Houst>

Charles, I disagree with anyone having to point it out that cars are unsafe.................We , as humans, Should be able to figure it out without any help from Nader or any other self appointed King of Safety. My opinion is this: If you are gonna drive it, you are the only "thing" that can make a car as unsafe as it is capable of being, or as safe as it's capable of being..................... I know This sounds cliche or whatever,..............But GUNS DON'T KILL,................PEOPLE DO.................. same with cars................the car doesn't kill, People do, and so many people that shouldn't be allowed to drive them are given licscense. It's kinda like passing out handguns at graduation from high school or something as ludicrous.

All the above being said, I think that all the safety features such as Airbags and impact resistant bumpers and crumple zones should be optional and never should have been mandated..................If there weren't so many safety features , we would have far less idiots on the road that think they are invincible in their cars..............And It would be a very nice way to institute natural selection and population control.

Ok,....................Now that I've said my peace.................Y'all come and get me!.............I figure My thinnking on the subject is likely a candidate for scrutiny to say the least......................but I have to add that all of it is MY opinion not anyone elses, and I by no means have the right to impose it,......................but I do have the right to say what I think. ( I probably won't do much more than listen/read and if a "good" question comes up I might answer)

Snip8<

More Snip8< Artificial Intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.

Remove "YOURPANTIES" to reply MUADIB®

Check out my new Sig Hanger.............the one about artificial intelligence,,,,...........................LOL.

Artificial Intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.

Remove "YOURPANTIES" to reply MUADIB®

Then there's my favorite...

Never argue with stupid people, you can't win, so don't waste your time.

Well, considering that the first mandated airbags can cause hearing damage because they deploy faster than the engineers said they should .... because some Government safety weenie wanted to protect the dumb ass who doesn't wear his/her seat belts. So... put all of us in jeopardy just to accommodate the few jerks in our midst.... let em splat against the windshield, I say! KWW

I agree that expensive things like airbags, anti lock brakes, impact absorbing bumpers etc should be optional, but on the condition that any of these things can be ordered on any car if I want it. I also agree that it is up to the driver to make the vehicle as safe as possible, both in a mechanical sense and in driving skills/attitude. I think you're right in that's probably the biggest factor in driving safety. This is something that is not seriously addressed in any government mandate to my knowledge, heaven forbid we actually encourage people to take responsibility for themselves!

However - regarding auto safety - what about the actual design itself? In your reply - "...If you are gonna drive it, you are the

If a car is designed with serious flaws, it has a low capability for being safe. A classic example is the Ford Pinto. A very good driver in a Pinto in excellent running condition could be rear-ended and incinerated. Not often, but there was that design flaw regarding an unprotected gas tank and Ford knew about it, yet refused to do anything until the lawsuits poured in. I don't think that's right. I think the car companies have to hold up their end of the bargain, which is to make a decently well-designed product to the best of their ability at the time it was made. I realize the perfectly safe car has not been invented and would be too expensive, but I think the auto industry in the past just blew off the whole safety thing altogether, and never even gave the consumer a chance to make choices.

Charlie Houston TX '66 Bug "Whitey"

The whole pie thing was related to Ralph plugging a Green Party candidate for California Governor. We really need to get a candidate of our own to run, so they can sign into law, legislation that will be friendly to the aircooled VW. Would be nice to see the new Governor unloading his luggage out of a Kombi while moving into the governors mansion. :o) Bill Berckman

I think this is how it is. You don't have to buy safety features. Get a motorcycle with over 100 hp, and a sidecar to it for transportation. More power, less safety features.

...................Some drivers are dangerous no matter what they're driving. You can't really blame anything or anyone else for what they do. There was a news story last month about a guy out in California who ran over several people because he apparently, mistakenly thought he was pressing the brake pedal but was really standing on the gas pedal instead. The states ought to be held accountable for letting people like that drive. Just my opinion. With some of the technology thats available for simulators like what pilots use, why can't driving tests become sophisticated enough to find some of these homicidal idiots before they've killed someone?

Likewise. I think though, I was trying to say on my previous post that it's the stuff that the consumer can't see or know about, such as the pinto/gas tank, or to use an example from Nader's book, power brakes in early '50s Buicks which were prone to failure. In both cases, the manufacturers knew about design deficiencies but kept them secret, and people got hurt because of them. Manufacturers have a responsibility to fess up to such blunders since our lives depend on the integrity of their products.

Excuse me, I have to go teach my son how to play lawn darts.

Charlie Houston TX '66 Bug "Whitey"

On 15 Aug 2003 06:21:28 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@aol.comnojunk (Braukuche) scribbled this interesting note:

Too add fuel to the fire...what makes you assume the people in your example are productive to begin with???

-- John Willis

Some undoubtably are not. But most people are until they become incapacitated in some way because you must be productive in order to eat, clothe yourself and find shelter. There are a lot of people who work because they like to, but there are also a lot of people who work because they have no choice.However, if you crash your motorcycle and spill your brains and are uninsured you essentially become a ward of the state, and guess who picks up the tab? The taxpayer, naturally. That's why I don;t buy this individualistic crap about, "it's my life and I'll do what I want with it..." because its not your life as long as the state is there to bail you out when you fail.

--Dan E

"Charles Myer" wrote

Lawn darts! .... man, those things were fun! The way my mom pack-rats everything away, I'll bet they're still at my parents house somewhere. I don't believe ToysRUs carries `em these days.

Check out these rebels:

-- Scott

On 16 Aug 2003 03:35:31 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@aol.comnojunk (Braukuche) scribbled this interesting note:

Which leads to entirely too many "Entitlement Programs" to baby people who really ought to be doing something productive to begin with.

Yes, in a society as large and diverse as ours, the individual is rarely as self-sufficient as in days gone by. However, Scott's point about the necessity of each individual taking responsibility for his or her's decisions is well taken. There is far too little of that going around these days because Society (or the State, if you will) is usually all too happy to baby them along, tell them it isn't their fault, and give them lots of money. And whose money is going to charity? Yours and mine. And in some cases, quite involuntarily.

If you are a relatively unimpared-in-ability adult who decides to ride a motorcycle without a helmet and you dash your head in an accident and get to live life very much like a carrot because of your actions and you haven't made arrangements for this eventuality and the only option is for the rest of us to pay your hospital bills for the rest of your life, then I say pull the plug and let the carrot die.

-- John Willis

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 20:19:08 -0400, travis scribbled this interesting note:

I've still got mine. It has been a while since I've played with them, but I recall them being quite a lot of fun!:~)

-- John Willis