Torquing the Crankcase Freezes Crankshaft - What did I fowl up?

Take the split bearings out and try to torque it.

If that solves it, you can look further into the way those shells fit in the case.

Speedy Jim

Thanks Jim,

I took the bearings out and I can torque it no problem. I put them back in, I can only get maybe 6 lbs of torque before things begin to tighten up. At 18 lbs I can no longer turn the flywheel.

I have taken the bearings out and cleaned them really well. I removed the dowel pins and cleaned them. I even cleaned the little hole. Put the mess back together, same thing. Disassembled again, tried switching the bearings thinking maybe they fell out at some point and I got them mixed up? Put it all back together, same thing.

I don't get how these could be warped. Assuming that is the problem. When I lay them over each other, match them up, etc. they seem to be perfect. Heck, if I broke them up somehow I'm not sure how I would have done that.

The only other thing I can think of is that the crankshaft is not lining up into the case correctly. With the flywheel as my "stronghold" on this thing, it's pretty tough to line up the other bearings and get them into their pins. It's of course a little easier, since the previous rebuilder put the marks in the sides of them for lining them up. ;-)

Could it be that I am a micron or two off in lining the case up, and I am getting "rub" from a rod? I'm running out of ideas. I wish I could get my fat head inside of that case and see what's going on when I put the two halves together!

Thanks,

-Steve Ballantyne

Thanks Jim,

I took the bearings out and I can torque it no problem. I put them back in, I can only get maybe 6 lbs of torque before things begin to tighten up. At 18 lbs I can no longer turn the flywheel.

I have taken the bearings out and cleaned them really well. I removed the dowel pins and cleaned them. I even cleaned the little hole. Put the mess back together, same thing. Disassembled again, tried switching the bearings thinking maybe they fell out at some point and I got them mixed up? Put it all back together, same thing.

I don't get how these could be warped. Assuming that is the problem. When I lay them over each other, match them up, etc. they seem to be perfect. Heck, if I broke them up somehow I'm not sure how I would have done that.

The only other thing I can think of is that the crankshaft is not lining up into the case correctly. With the flywheel as my "stronghold" on this thing, it's pretty tough to line up the other bearings and get them into their pins. It's of course a little easier, since the previous rebuilder put the marks in the sides of them for lining them up. ;-)

Could it be that I am a micron or two off in lining the case up, and I am getting "rub" from a rod? I'm running out of ideas. I wish I could get my fat head inside of that case and see what's going on when I put the two halves together!

Thanks,

-Steve Ballantyne

Sorry for the double post. Google told me it didn't post the first time.

Another thing that's bugged me ... maybe I'm on the right track here ...

On the right half there are three dowels, for the three bearings on the shaft. On the left half there is another dowel hole up there at the end of the shaft that the pulley attaches to. I can't see anything going in there, as there doesn't seem to be a "second hole" in the bearing. I figure maybe it's a leftover from an earlier build with the case?

But now I am starting to think that when I ripped this apart, maybe I dropped the dowels out and put them back in wrong. The pins that I am using between the two halves of my "problem area" look the same to me. But my wife (who has far better eyes than me) says she thinks one has a slightly different head on it.

Just thinking out loud. :-)

Thanks,

-Steve Ballantyne

That may be the answer. Ask the wife to re-assemble it

Better yet, leave the dowels out and bolt it together for test.

Jim

With the pins out, and only the bearings in, I still freeze up at about

I can see a slight bit of wear on the inside of one of the saddle bearings up at the edges where it presses into the crankcase. Is it possible that these were warped from an overheat? If so, why weren't they locked before I split the case? Could all of my clunking around have warped these things somehow? They can't be terribly delicate considering the wear and tear the engine puts on them.

Or, is my case warped? And how the heck would that happen?

Still trying to figure out what could cause this trouble.

Any ideas or clues are greatly appreciated. Has anyone else had this torque dilmena in a reassembly?

Thanks,

-Steve Ballantyne

.....The only thing I can think of at this point is to take that crankshaft to a machine shop and have it checked for run out on the main journals. Maybe they could also take your torqued down but empty case and check the bearing saddle alignment. If you have a really reliable straight edge, you might be able to check the case bearing saddles yourself but the machine shops tools would be more precise.

I actually tried that just to try and eliminate the dowels as the problem. Still couldn't bolt it down without locking up the shaft.

If I put the peices under a magnifier I can see a few things. One, there is a fine "lip" worn into the edges of the halves where they came together. I'm betting that that these two halves were matched until I split the case, and I don't have a chance in hell of getting them re-matched, or perhaps I don't want to? There is also a discolored line in the case when I pull the bearing halves out. As if hot oil, and father time has left a track. When I feel around at it, there doesn't seem to be a path worn. When I run my fingernail across it, I don't catch any cracks or bumps. Seems smooth, just discolored.

Assuming I will have to replace the bearings at this point I pulled out a nail file and wore down the thin lip on both halves and then reassembled. Same torque issue though. I think one half is warped. When I put it in there, the top sides seem tight, but the bottom of it can be pulled back and forth on the dowel just a little bit, and the other side doesn't seem to do that. Perhaps I warped it putting it back together somehow?

I never suspected crankcase reassembly would be such a task. :-)

-Steve Ballantyne

More bearing questions:

I am trying to see what a new set of bearings would run me, and I'm having a hard time finding the size I have. Perhaps I am not measuring them right? I know that the crank case can only get line bored three times or so before the bearings are too large and you call it junk. But it seems like my bearings are somewhere inbetween what I am seeing sold.

If I measure the outside diameter of the bearing (or the valleys in the case) I come up with 65mm (or two and a half inches). If I measure the inside diameter I get 55mm.

The markings have a symbol similar to a capital M, and then a 4 05. Underneath that it says "STD" (standard?). On the other side at the bottom it's stamped with "BC233". Does this mean anything?

Thanks,

-Steve Ballantyne

Dear Steve,

The problem may be in your cam.

Normally, when fitting new bearings (I know you're not but bear with me here) the BARE crankshaft, and then the camshaft, are mated to their bearings to verify a fit free of interference. That is, each can be rotated with only finger pressure when the case is torqued to spec.

The instruction to torque the 13mm nuts nearest the cam-bore plug is to ensure a leak-free fit and ONLY applies to final assembly, not to the verification of the fit between the individual shafts, their bearings, and the bearing-saddles in the crankcase.

I think it would be a good idea to verify that the CAM rotates freely with the case torqued to spec. Only then can you be sure the problem is with the crankshaft and/or its bearings.

-Bob Hoover

I would just slap a new set in there. See how they fit.

It's up to you whether it's worth all the effort/expense of having the case measured/inspected.

Jim

Hello Bob,

So you are suggesting leaving out the crankshaft, and torque the case to spec to check that the camshaft is good? In trying to resolve issues with my main saddle bearing I have been doing most of my testing with the camshaft out (although I have left the camshaft bearings in place).

-Steve Ballantyne

So these should be easy to purchase. But when I am looking at what people stock they have all sorts of odd measurements. For example: aircooled.net offers .010, .020 and .030. Seems to be measure in "inches", but that can't be right. California Imports (cip1.com) has .50mm, .60mm, and .75mm, etc. But then they do have a set that they refer to as "standard". Full title, "VWC-111-198-461 - MAIN BEARING SET 1200CC-1600CC - STANDARD".

At $25-$35, I would say this is a wise move. They would need replaced eventually anyhow. Might as well so this while I have the whole thing apart. With luck, I can throw them in and torque this down without any problems.

I'm a married man Jim, nothing it up to me! I think my wife is all ready about to hang me up. She wants her car back. ;-)

I have been playing with these bearings and giving them some scrutiny this morning. The flatest surface I have is the kitchen counter. If I lay this one bearing on it's side, and apply pressure to one side, I can tap the other side with my index finger and hear it "click" against the counter. I know a machinist would have a fear better rig to test something like this. But that tells me I have a slight warp here. If I flip it over on it's other side and give it the same test, I get the same result.

-Steve Ballantyne

.010 etc. are in inches becuz US machine shops will bore the case out with inch measurements :-)

ROFLMAO !!

So I got a new set of bearings ordered. I tried first just installing the main saddle bearing, as I was getting things locked up with just 10 mounds of pressure and those installed. New set gave me the same effect. I figured maybe I should go ahead and replace all the bearings, but I had a hell of a time getting to the number one bearing (the smallest one at the pulley end). So after only replacing that first one, and the split saddle bearing I tried to put it back together. This time I got even worse torque and when I rotated the flywheel something felt VERY wrong.

So I got it back apart and found that I chewed up the gear on the crankshaft that drives the distributer. And for that matter, I probably chewed up the distributer gear too. Talk about doing some damage.

I can see now that I am way out of my league here. I guess my next step is to throw all these parts into a big box and take them to a qualified machinist who can tell me what all needs to be done to get the crankcase back together.

If anyone would like to recommend a good mechanic in the Columbus or central Ohio area, I would appreciate it. I also have no idea what this should cost me. I figure I may need all sorts of work done. Possibly a line bore, crankshaft grinding, etc. Any guestimates from the professionals would be appreciated.

Thanks,

-Steve Ballantyne

Don't give up now!

What happens if you leave the distrib drive out? (BTW, with the drive in place, you can turn the crank in one direction but not t'other.)

I can not believe that the case needs boring, given the general condition and mileage.

Lay the crank in one case half and spin it while holding the pencil against the crank journal. See if you spot any runout.

Jim

I gave up on my 74' many, many years ago. I'm not letting go of this one! EVER! :-)

I have not tried that. Muirs suggestion was to remove the distributer, and then plug it with a rag to keep the spring and such from dropping out.

Thanks Jim. I will give that a shot and report back what I find.

-Steve Ballantyne

" snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com... > I have not tried that. Muirs suggestion was to remove the distributer,

Muir....enough said.... it wasn't a guide for idiots, it was a guide written by an idiot...

And a stoner... It's amazing how many people still think that book is the bible of the air cooled VW world.

Tony