Getting out of skid in AWD

Drive slower in snow. It works.

Move to Florida! That said, sometimes if you get into a slide in which nothing seems to work, try putting the vehicle in neutral for a few seconds which may let the tires regain traction and control. Also I have owned many US iron 4x4's over the years and found during winter they are basically useless if no in 4x4 on snow due to there is no weight over the rear axle. A VW FWD Passat does 150% better than any US 4x4 only in 4x2. But, 200lb of sand or salt bags in the rear does wonders. I have a 99 GLX Passat and 88 S10 Blazer... and the last time my S10 was out during winter was the Blizzard of 93-94.

All wheel drive or 4 wheel drive do NOTHING to help you stay on the road or go where you want to go. They only help you get going. ABS does not help you get out of trouble, it just helps you avoid it.

If anything AWD and 4WD may contribute to loosing control because people THINK it will help them or because they don't realize how slippery it is because they were able to pull away from the curb.

I have two suggesti> Ok, I apoligize that I'm asking about this in the VW news group. But I

Sometimes I think they give too many options.

My normal driver is a '87 16V Scirocco, which it happens benefits from snow tires on the front in winter, but that's a different story.

But related to your story, for the last two years I've also been driving a Chevy

1500 pickup with ABS and shift-on-the-fly 4WD. In general, on snowy roads, I'd run it in 4WD and sort of mentally treat it as a front wheel drive because, as someone else noted, there's no damn weight over the rear axle in these things. I did some skid testing (in a parking lot) and found that for the most part "the usual" stuff worked. Lifting my foot off the gas, steering, braking. But perhaps Chevy doesn't quite mean the same thing by "4WD" as Jeep does, because I also note that I don't get the same axle lock up that you seem to be talking about unless I put it into "4WD LOW." Also, since my Scirocco doesn't have ABS, and I learned to drive long before it was created, my habits are still pretty fixed in that I brake / steer / brake / steer. The few times I've gotten in real skids with the truck, that seemed to work fine in 4WD. I seem to get better steering response this way than if I just step on the brake and steer and depend on the ABS to pulse the brakes for me.

I note you say at tend yards you were still going 15 to 20. Out of curiosity, how fast were you going when you switched into 4WD?

I'm not sure I'm visualizing exactly what happened there, and I know "logic" is hard to come by when things are moving fast like that, but if the car is going sideways, the brakes aren't doing any good. I think I'd have let off the brakes and tried to steer around the pole. If the axles were locked, though, (and I've tried this in the truck) it would have been necessary to power up to pull the car out, then keep it up so the tires would match the road to keep from "snow plowing" and loosing traction again, then working back down. Just letting off the gas with that mechanical setup is like stepping on the brakes, and it overrides the ABS (again, assuming I understand what you're saying about how it works). I saw someone else suggest doing to neutral. I never tried that, but it seems like it would work.

Interesting story. Some interesting angles there. Sorry to hear about your crunched car.

- Bill

4WD actually makes it harder for the ABS to work properly and if it's icy it's got a difficult job as it is. As counterintuitive as it sounds it's often easier to accelerate and try to let the front wheels pull you through. But I agree that a lot of 4x4s aren't good snow vehicles, a lot of them have very wide tires which don't help.

nate

Woodchuck wrote:

try finding a large snowy (empty) carpark or similar to have a bit of a play in.

i've found this can help avoid hitting things in the snow, but might not work too well with ABS:

so you're heading towards something that you'd rather not hit. stand on the brakes and lock the front wheels (that's where ABS shafts my plans! but i've never tried it so i don't really know) whip the wheel round as quick as you can to full lock (so you would go away fron the thing ya gonna hit) the car will continue straight on. come off the brakes, and it usually lurches sideways, but ya got to be quick and catch it before it goes too far if you're on a road - you'd just go head on into the wall/hedge etc

If you hit ice, which it certainly sounds like you did, it doesnt matter what you have, or what you do. But nice story, thnx for sharing this holiday season.

You might want some rear snow tires... 2 snow tires are meant only for the rear of the car... you can feel front traction through your steering wheel inputs and gauge the responce you get, but when the rear end breaks loose it can be sudden and without warning... The Government of Canada and the 2 reputable tire shops i've dealt with recommend 4 snow tires and 1 shop REFUSES to install only 2 snow tires if the vehicle if FWD/AWD, and will recommend to the owner to install on the rear of the car if they buy the tires and do the job themselves.

They also recommend installing a fresh set of tires to the rear of the car for the same reason... Michelin did a study to prove this too... But using a wet skid pad... The car with 1/2 worn rears and fresh fronts was losing control out of nowhere - and the skids were difficult for these seasoned drivers to recover from.

You correct there are many forms of 4WD, AWD. I had it in AWD and I switched to 4WD (which was a mistake). 4WD locks the front to rear differential. Most 4x4's do not have an option to go from RWD -> AWD ->

4WD. I think I was going 15-20 the whole time until that damn telephone pole got in the way.

The car was at a slight angle to the direction it was going. But the front wheels may have been turned even more.

Once I made the mistake of turning on 4WD, I think my next biggest mistake was I depended on the ABS too much. I think if I put it in neutral I might of regained control.

That's really good point that locking differentials and ABS don't mix. I forgot about that.

I don't think so. Perhaps a bit more background. When I moved to the '87 16V Scirocco from an '84 8V I wasn't having any trouble stopping or steering while braking.but found that I sometimes *was* having trouble getting started from a stop, climbing hills and applying power while turning without spinning the tires. It seemed to be due to the increased horsepower and the wider tires. I put snow tires on the front, which solved the problem.

I haven't noticed any problems of the mismatched traction sort you mentioned from the Michelin test. I hadn't heard of this test, but it did occur to me to wonder about it so I did some tests of my own in some snow covered parking lots. I've since had some real-world experiences as well and observed no issues. Maybe the difference being that I've got two good normal tires on the rear and two good snow tires on the front? I wonder if that Michelin test wasn't trying to emulate not only putting snow tires on the front but also having worn tires on the rear as well. 50% worn rears with new normal fronts on a wet skid pad doesn't seem like a valid simulation of good normal rears with new snow fronts in snow.

- Bill

The Michelin test, as I mentioned was testing for water only... identical tire, 1/2 worn in back, 100% in front... The car hydroplaned at the rear and the back end would come around.

The government of Canada tried similar tests with snow tires and found, while there was a traction advantage to having snow tires on the drive wheels of a FWD car (braking, steering, accelerating) they found stability issues if the rear tires wouldn't grip properly... You are probably a cautious driver and never had been in the situation where a skid would occur... I've driven for years with all-season tires in the snow and never had a problem... I think the problem occurs in an emergency situation when

100% of availible traction is required.

Thanks. That makes perfect sense.

Perhaps. I've intentionally caused the situation and not seen the problem. Or maybe, because the snows aren't that hugely different from the normals (somewhat more agressive tread, somewhat softer material) the difference isn't dramatic enough to cause me trouble. Now that you cause me to think about it, I think the normal tires are supposed to be "all weather" types. I do know that, with the exception of the original Dasher (the first VW water cooled in the USA) I've never had much trouble with back end swing in a VW FWD unless the rears had a fair amount less tread, the back end OR front end were badly out of alignment or the rear brakes were wacked out somehow.

You have to know the people you deal with. It sound like you know these people enough to trust what they say. And, in general, I do see the point. I've just never experienced it myself, even when going out of my way to cause it. Well, except as I'll note in a moment. In that Chevy 1500, I can do it in a blink by driving in RWD and hitting the gas. In the Scirocco, the only way I can cause it is to pull up the hand brake, or turn too hard at too high a speed. But the words I just used may go back to your comment earlier about "You are probably a cautious driver..." What's "too hard" and "too fast" ? I've been in several very bad accidents, and most of them were in snow, and in most cases I saw that the person driving made the mistake of going too fast or trying to do something too radical for the traction available, or both. I've got a huge respect for snow and an very cautious. First snow every year I go out and practice. The car absolutely will do exactly what you say. I've marked it up to "too fast / too radical / don't get in that situation."

Thanks for taking the time to explain. Very clear and very interesting.

- Bill

You get off the brakes, downshift, & steer. That simple. The car will *not* change directions (or stop on ice) with the brakes locked down. ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"

Giggle Cream - it makes dessert *funny*

Dunlop Winter M3s stick like glue. I have 4 on my Passat, it handles snow and ice almost as well as my old AWD Subaru. Tom