Buying new A4,330i, G35, CTS, C320

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A 2002 MKIV 1.8T with 5 speed. Here's a quote from C&D's test: "At 6.5 seconds, the 1.8-liter turbo powers the GTI to 60 mph more than a second quicker than the SVT Focus and a second and a half quicker than the Civic Si." Here's the link: http://caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id &article_id#61&page_number=2
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Then that would make it 0.2 seconds slower than the RSX, not 0.02! He has trouble with his data....
And if all this is the case, why would you even think that a 7.7 second 0-60 figure for the prelude SH (your original claim) was anywhere near correct when we've established that it's almost the same (aside from a lack of 5 hp) from the RSX? Sounds like you need to use some common sense and question some other figures before you use them...

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Sorry, typo. See? I own up to my mistakes.

Curb weight, power delivery, gearing, drag co., grip and other factors all contribute to what makes a car perform the way it does. This is why an RX8 with considerablly less torque from a much smaller engine can keep up with a G35 coupe'. The RSX has 20 more horsepower then my car, with a higher redline, a lower curb weight, and can get away with shorter gearing in 1st-5th than my car because of it's 6 speed gearbox. All of this stuff needs to be taken into account. Even if I accept your number of 6.7 for the Prelude, this would place it .2 slower to 60 than my car, despite a displacement advantage of nearly half a liter, 15 more horsepower, and a lighter curb weight. Other things are at play. I've never seen a Prelude tick off 0-60 that quickly, and you have yet to provide a valid source which backs you up. I'm skeptical of the number, that's all. Regardless, we do seem to agree on our thinking about FWD Vs. RWD.

Sadly, I lack the ability to borrow cars from major manufacturers and subject them to performance tests. This is beside the fact that I neither have the neccesary testing equipment nor am I an "expert" driver capable of performing tests in a manner that most people would accept. With that taken into consideration, how do you propose I go about finding performance numbers? The only source I have right now are automotive journals (both in print and on the net) and I get the feeling that no matter which of those journals I cite in my posts, you'll find a problem with it.
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closed to or gone over 1.0g.
that's about correct for FWD, look most can't go over low 0.9gs they understeer to much.
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I don't agree with this last part you've been incorrect a few times in your post.
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post.
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they do in the Accord, TL but not in the Civic/RSX
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skidpad at 0.88g I wonder if your reading it correctly.
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Those are the numbers I remember seeing! I'm glad to know I'm not dellusional.
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your not, I just think Jay J is a little off.
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the Viper pulled more than 1.0g on the 600 ft skidpad
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the Viper pulled more than 1.0g on the 600 ft skidpad
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Understeering doesn't have so much to do with AWD as with weight. The main culprit for that, apart from suspension, is weight distribution. What really happens is that most AWD vehicles predominantly lean on their noses, as a result of AWD's weight burden predominantly leaning on the front axle. If you don't want to take my word for that, just check a Mitsubishi EVO and you'll see that because that is one of the best balanced cars in terms of weight understeering is much less present and oversteer is thus made possible on many occasions.
This is why I'm waiting to see if BMW are capable of manufacturing a new 3 series with their great 3l diesel engine, their new X-drive system - apparently just as good as Quattro, though its reliability remains to be seen, and their famous neutral distribution of weight. The present 330xi and xd models still also suffer from excessively heavy noses, not to mention Audis which are notoriuous for that. Of course while the new S4 is an otherwise great car, it would be so very much better if it could see some of its weight transferred to its back, or better still, see it vanish.
JP Roberts
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (Steve Grauman) wrote in message

No, not true. I know for a fact that FWD cars can be tuned for oversteer. Raise the pressure in the rear tires, or reduce their section width. Put a very large anti-roll bar in the rear, and a smaller one up front. Use a harder rubber compound on the rear tires than on the front.
It can be done, because I've seen it. On my '83 GTI, I was able to make it neutral at the limit through tire pressure and a large rear anti-roll bar.

While that has something to do with drivetrain layout, it's also designed that way from the factory. MBs and BMWs also understeer directly from the factory, because ham-fisted drivers do the right thing for understeer when they overcook it - they lift. My quattro oversteers at the limit because that's the way I've set it up. I used tire pressure alone to get it to do this. -- Jonesy
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I sympathise with what you said about tyre pressure. Another good thing to do if you want oversteer is - because front tyres get the brunt of wear - to move them to the back, while keeping those in the front pretty new.
However, I have to say in the case of my Quattro it is still mostly understeer that I get on sharp bends, unless braking heavily or lifting the gas pedal abruptly half way. I've found the best way to tackle sharp cornering is by lifting off the accelerator just before the sharpest point and then flooring the pedal there or a tiny wee little before that to allow for turbo lag. If on the other hand, I try to kick on the gas too early it is mostly understeer I get for the beginning of the corner, then if a bit lucky and depending a lot on the quality of tarmac, some oversteer. Now, I'd like to hear how you tackle your corners.
It must also be said that if you set your car up for blunt oversteer - which will usually happen mostly when braking, then you might be interfering with the stock design of your EBD brake system - my car does not have ESP, and in the event of an emergency stop half way through a sharp bend that might be very dangerous because there wouldn't be a way to prevent your car from spinning then.
JP
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Uhh, no. As the tread gets worn, the tires PICK UP grip in dry conditions. That's why folks "shave" tires for racing.

Try a bigger rear anti-roll bar, or lower tire pressure in the rear. Works great. With the combo, you can tune it such that the car is neutral at the limit.

Goodness - sounds like you're going to have an accident some day. If you're still on the gas from turn-in to apex, then you weren't going fast enough BEFORE turn-in. Lifting at the apex and then grabbing loads of torque after that sounds like a good way to exit the roadway ass-first. Well, if the car is understeering at the limit, lifting is the only way to get the damn nose around...

I am on the gas until some distance before the turn-in (differs with turn and road conditions), turn in and trail-brake (sometimes, if I am VERY familiar with the corner,) keep the throttle up over 3k rpm to keep the turbo spinning, select down to whatever gear is called for (depends on corner), off the brakes, late apex and full on the throttle. Trail-braking is tough, so I don't do it much unless there is good run-out from the corner in case I over-cook it. Otherwise, I have all my braking done before turn-in. Keeping the turbo up keeps me from getting a surprise on turn exit.

No, I have it set for slight oversteer, and I do not put myself in a position to have to emergency-brake in any corner.
I'm not exactly sure that you should be instructing others on cornering technique. Following your method might lead to a hell of a lot of surprises where none need to be, and on the track, it would be damn slow. But hey, what do I know? I've only had a few days of Skip Barber, so I'm no expert. Ask Krieger - he's a real instructor. -- Jonesy
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As the tread gets worn, the tires PICK UP grip in dry

Totally wrong! The surface in direct contact with the road might be slightly bigger for a worn tyre, but the quality of rubber has so badly deteriorated that grip is MUCH LESS, even in the dry. Otherwise, nobody would be replacing their tyres and Michelin would be selling peanuts. Those who shave tires for racing do it because they know or should know that in so doing they are getting rid of that layer of rubber that has so badly deteriorated ("singed" as it were).

No. If you don't want to deviate too much from specs, I find that it is precisely the opposite, i.e., rising pressure at the rear, that will help the car oversteer - now, I have never tried anything drastic, so you might be right, assuming it is by a considerable margin that you lower that pressure, in which case, the car will be a real danger on the motorway as the rubber will heat too much to be safely driven at high speeds.

The point in lifting and applying torque is precisely to get the back started so that you can then modulate the amount of oversteer with your right pedal.

This techique is OK for a light FWD (anything like a Civic, Focus or 206 GTI, for example) but not for an Audi quattro for a very simple reason: If you're totally off the gas until apex, you're too late on the pedal because quattro will not have those necessary splits of a second to send torque to the back, which is where you mostly want it at apex to induce oversteer. Also, by using your hand-brake you're the one who is really risking having an accident unless on a circuit, where speed-induced momentum is too high for that sort of malabarism anyway.

Right, so you're a supernatural being because you never have to emergency-brake. If you really know what "emergency" means, you'll know it means everything but "predictable", so by no means can you foresee what your "position" will be. Just think of an unexpected obstacle half-way through a blind bend.

Did I ever intend to be instructing others? Not even close. I'm just only talking about my experiences with my own quattro and trying to learn from those with more experience than me, but then again, it's only a pitty we cannot meet to see who is faster on the track, and learn from them, assuming safety to be first and foremost.
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[misinformation snipped]
Here's a good read for those confused by treadwear issues:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/competition/shaving.html
This article does say that as tread gets old, it loses "stickiness." But in auotcross circles, worn tires are used in place of racing tires on the cars of the budget-minded.
In any case, car tires that have been *equally* heat cycled (which is what we are talking about here), moving the less-treaded tires to the end of the car that you desire to have *more grip* is the proper way. I've done it, and it works.

Oh, dear - you are terrribly confused. Here is a URL to help ease your lack of knowledge:
http://www.mazda323performance.com/suspensiontech.htm
Go to the chart at the bottom.

Not the way you describe it. Maybe you've left something out?

I can see you have no experience on the track, or that your experience is quite small or elementary. That's OK, we all started there. I don't want oversteer at the apex - I want straight-on power. I want to steer as little as possible - I'm trying to extend the straight. I want the car to be neutral to the turn exit. You want to steer A LOT before the apex, then steer less after. And you do not want to slide any of the tires in any way. Really - don't take my word for it. Look up "trail braking" and "late apex" in Google - that will explain it better than I can.

I'm not sure where you got the idea I used my handbrake at all. Maybe you should read what I wrote more carefully.

I have not had to emergency brake in quite some time. In fact, I cannot actually remember the last time. That is because, on the public roads at least, I never, *ever* outdrive my sightlines. This is a basic defensive driving technique, taught to me when I first got behind the wheel of a motor vehicle. Nothing supernatural about it. Common sense, that's all.

If it's blind, then I go only as fast as I am able to see. If that means 20mph around a corner, then that's what I drive. I don't overdrive my sightlines.

That is wise. I'm not sure where you got your instruction, but that instructor is not fit to teach even basic elementary vehicle driving.

If you drive as you say, then I would be able to take any old A1 VW GTI in decent tune and do a decent job of making your day a poor one. When I went to a club event some years ago, one of the fellows who had a 308 Ferarri decided to run his everyday work car. A 1983 VW GTI. He said it had not been modified in any way, other than uprated dampers and strut tower braces. His times on the track (Portland International Raceway) were better than almost all of the fine iron driven by the invited club members. A lot of expensive European machinery, some of it with TRIPLE his HP numbers, were humbled that day. But he did have his SCCA license, and he did know how to drive that car at 10/10ths. I had sold my GTI long before then, but he made me wish I still had it. I had no idea it was that fast! He was so smooth it was incredible.
My point? The machinery is important, but the technique is more important. Maybe you have just been unclear as to your skills and understanding of automotive dynamics. I will certainly be happy to give you the benefit of the doubt. But please, read the references I gave, and look up the terms I have used. It will make my point more clear, in the case that I have written it poorly, and caused misunderstanding. If I have written as to cause misunderstanding, I apologize in advance.
Regards,
R.F. Jones
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"Shaving" is as much to tread wear and our discussion as much as oranges is to potatoes, so if you don't believe I'm right when I say the car is faster and more manageable with the slightly worn tyres at the rear rather than at the front, I can't believe you can possibly be faster than me at all on the track.

Certainly the anti-roll bar, but just the opposite as to tyre pressure. Optimal tyre pressure is that which gives you optimal traction. What you are saying does not work with Audis, as it would make them unsafe at high speeds as a result of rubber overheating.

Sorry, I must have misinterpreted your trail-brake and misread hand-brake.

Totally agree that it's a very bad idea to overdrive your sightlines, but you're neglecting many other factors, such as any unexpected animal dashing across the road. Don't wait for that to happen.
I'm not sure where you got your instruction, but that

My instructor happens to have been ranking among the top 5 rallye drivers in this country for over 7 years. I took a course in a 325i on an ice track. I can tell you you really learn where to oversteer there, which is roughly proportionally distributed on both sides of apex, assuming a symmetrical bend, with a bit more emphasis before apex.

I'd enjoy your challenge only if you were one of those in the "triple HP" lot.

Most definitely agree here. Remember what Mr Bond was capable of doing in his Two Chevaux? :)
Have a good day,
JP Roberts
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If you had bothered to read the link, then you would see the relevance.

No, I don't believe you are right, and until you provide something other than your opinion to counter my *experience* and my outside source, then you are just typing to see your words in USENET.

Did you read the link I provided? Did you know that there are other references out there that state exactly the same thing?

Sorry, Mr. Roberts. Tire pressures are most often given as a range, and having the sets of tires at two different pressures within that range is not dangerous. At any speed, other than past the speed rating of the tire.
We're not talking about running a 36psi tire at 20psi to get results. I run the rears of my quattro at 3psi less than the fronts.

Actually, I'm not. I live in a rural area with livestock and wild animals. The terrain does consist of plenty of "blind bends." I have never been surprised, even when an animal darts out into the road on the corner, because I do not overdrive my sightlines. The sudden appearance of some obstacle in the middle of the roadway is not phyically possible.

Ralleye driving and tarmac driving are not the same. Full throttle/left-foot braking technique works for ralleye, but would be a disaster on tarmac.
I don't ralleye.

I have no idea what this means.

A fine Roger Moore film. IIRC, he drove an Alfa GTV6 near the end - Octopussy, right? So many Bond films - I can't keep them all straight.
The point remains - don't take *my* word for any of this. Ask a real instructor, or at least read the links I provided. I am absolutely not making any of this stuff up.
R.F. Jones
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