A604-41TE Amsoil synthetic versus ATF+3 Mpoar 7176 ??

No, it is not OK to use Scamsoil synthetic, which does *not* meet the correct fluid spec for your van.

No, Chrysler has been *requiring* ATF+ for some time, and the newest fluid is ATF+4. Do not be scammed by glossy ads claiming a non-spec fluid such as Amsoil is "better" or "meets every spec". There is no such thing as a universal automatic transmission fluid -- the specs are all *different* from one another; it's not a question of this one being better than that one being better than the other one.

USE THE CORRECT FLUID or you will wish that you had.

Bullshit.

-Stern

It is absolutely NOT alright. Only ATF+3 or +4 qualified fluids are acceptable for your transmission. Any other type fluid lacks the friction modifiers that are necessary for the operation of the torque convertor lockup clutch in these transmissions. The TCCLC must operate in a partially-locked mode for extended periods of time in 2nd, 3rd, and

4th gears, and without the proper modifiers it will "shudder" during operation, and eventually fail as a result (if you're fillings don't rattle out first).

Since your vehicle is a '92 its perfectly acceptable to use any one of at least a half-dozen aftermarket brands of ATF+3 (Coastal, Exxon, Pennzoil, Quaker State, and many others). If it were a vehicle that required ATF+4, only Chrysler dealers currently carry that blend.

Since ATF+4 is fully synthetic and +3 lasts about as well as a synthetic, it is also untrue that the Amsoil would "last twice as long." But it wouldn't matter, because the transmission wouldn't last long enough to find out.

AMSOIL claims to be ATF + compatible and Dexron compatible and I think even Type F compatible. All have quite different characteristics. The AMSOIL fluid must be able to detect what transmission it's used in and switch characteristics. Quite an amazing fluid. I wonder how they do that.

Actually with your Voyager, ATF +3 will work just as well and is far cheaper. If your van's transmission is running on the factory fill transmission fluid, it's got ATF +3 (or +2) in it already.

But, I never heard of a 1992 Voyager 4 speed transmission lasting 328000kms. Are you sure your trans isn't a 3 speed, or hasn't been rebuilt once? If it's a 4 speed I would bet it's been rebuilt, and there's no telling what fluid the rebuilder used.

Ted

It's a simple yet powerful technique known as "lying".

Far cheaper, well, OK, yeah. Work just as well? Maybe not. There's a fascinating SAE paper on the development of ATF+4. It contains lots of different performance comparisons to ATF+, +2 and +3. After reading it, I have zero problem paying the premium for +4; it's obviously a superior fluid in every way.

-Stern

Hi Dan.

Cannot argue with what you wrote. Correctumundo!

However, if in an older tranny the original specs called for "type" 3 or lower "type", then what will the extra $$ for "type" 4 do for the tranny? Does the design of the older tranny depend on more than type 3? Will it perform "better" when using "type" 4? Will it FOR SURE have longer life with "type" 4?

It seems that in spite of a "superior" product is the extra bucks worth it? Some clothing is "superior" in design but that does not mean that I need to buy it to be "well dressed", presentable and comfortable. No definite "proof" just comparisons and opinions.

Put it another way - will using "type" 3 in his older tranny DO any harm? If so, why does CC not state that as fact? All they state is what you say as "No, Chrysler has been *requiring* ATF+ for some time, and the newest fluid is ATF+4." Not the same as stating that any "older "type" WILL be harmful. Not exactly straight shooting. Kinda like the advertising hype some marketeers use.

In my '84 Voyager the diff bearings started making noise after 200,000 kms. Now with 275,000 km it is time for a rebuild. The "donor" core and torque converter are both sitting waiting for the two-week time block in our schedule to complete this project. Not sure if the Voyager's tranny is original, but if it is (any I have seen 3-speeds with that mileage) don't believe than ANY ATF (and that includes Scramsol) would have extended it's life. I mean it is 20 years old with lots of highway (and non-towing) kms on it. I know "type" 4 ATF won't be used in that rebuild simply because there is NO data that I can find to show that anything better than the readily available "type" 3 will harm the tranny (aka reduce it's performance and life span).

Yes, I know, I am talking now about the 3-speed '84 and not the OP's '92 which has over 300,000 kms. No matter what the OP used for fluid, the tranny is obviously being taken care of IF the +300,000 kms are on an original tranny

Ken

Spend the $10; download the paper. It's fascinating reading.

No, but the new fluid will offer better lubrication, more consistent frictional characteristics, better retention of characteristics over a larger temperature range--all things that tend to improve a transmission's lifespan.

Well, no, probably not, but your 3-speed trans is not *nearly* as sensitive to fluid frictional characteristics as is the 4-speed.

Your question of "will it do harm to use the older fluid?" seems kinda backwards to me...like saying "The owner's manual for my 1979 Caprice Classic says I should use API SD engine oil. I can get that by the case down at the cut-price auto parts store on the edge of town. Sure, I could skip right over SE, SF, SG, SH, SJ, SK and go directly to the newest SL oil from the regular parts place. It's better oil, no doubt, but my manual says I should use SD, so what harm will it do?"

-Stern

I snipped the previous part but note that one paper in and of itself may be fascinating reading, but any researcher knows that one study is NOT conclusive. If several papers have replicatable findings then that is good. One paper in and of itself is interesting reading and food for thought (and more research/experimenting).

True! OTOH, if the OP's tranny with 328,000 kms on it is a 4-speed then it is indeed living on borrowed time. How much longer is not for us to say.

Trouble with this last statement of yours is that all the engine oils currently sold have the latest specs. At least here where I live. I don't know if SD oil is still being sold. I note that the last case of oil I bought in December (at Oil Mart) for my wife's '83 Volvo GL with about 400,000 kms on the engine and tranny is Havoline 10W-30 service rated as SL, SJ, SH. The older ratings are not available here. In summer I use URSA 15W-40 with the same ratings. Changing the oil and filter religiously every 5000 km has done more to enhance" the engine's lifespan than any oil. Just my opinion. 400,000 kms is what I'd like to get from my CC engine in my Voyager :-)

OTOH, if the older ratings are available, suitable and quite a bit less expensive, then obviously ... This seems to be the case with ATF+3 and ATF+4. Both ratings are available. If it makes you feel good to put in the best oil money can buy, then by all means do whatever you please. However, that does not necessarily help longevity. Regular (appropriate) oil and filter changes have more to do with longevity than just putting in the "best" oil money can buy. Naturally, spending money is one's own responsibility. Putting in more than you need into a tranny/engine with over 300,000 kms is not in itself going to enhance longevity any more than taking vitamin pills in and of itself is going to extend the lifespan of my 85 year old mother. Clearly other factors must also be addressed to extend the lifespan of the OP's vehicle, and that includes appropriate filter and ATF changes. Wanna spend the extra money? Put in a large(er) ATF external cooler.

Except that it's not a "study" and it's not trying to "conclude" anything.

Stop assuming. Go read.

Sounds like you only shop at fancy-pants parts stores and big-boxes. Ever been to Eugene, OR? There's a town next to it, Springfield. Just over the Eugene-Springfield line is Brooks' Cut Rate Auto Parts. Yes, it's cute that Mr. Brooks' store name acronymizes "C.R.A.P." They have the current-spec oils, but they also have pallets upon pallets of old-spec stuff. Saw SD oil by the case, in new-old-stock cans, just a few years ago.

...not. Newer oil = better oil = longer engine life. Using the best available oil within reasonable price range, and not just the bare acceptable minimum, is a no-brainer.

Unless, of course, you buy into the whole pile of "use it up and throw it away, then buy a new one" crapola, like a good little consumer...

-Stern

When all else fails, flame away. Or at the very least use subtle ridicule.

I don't have the $$ to spend on the study/research paper. Frankly the $12 US dollars is used for other things that are more important than getting into an "I am smarter than you" dialogue of the deaf.

Dan, YOU ARE SMARTER THAN ME!! Got it? I have taken your advice before, but this time you have gone too far.

What is the paper you refer to if not a "study"? Is it a comic book? Does it give results at least, if no conclusions (as you state)? If not conclusive, then it is obviously INconclusive and not worth reading. How about putting a pdf copy available for public scrutiny instead of just saying trust me and spend the $10. Besides, the $10 is false! Unless you are a member, you spend more. If you are a member you spend less.

Don't let me get nasty for I do admit you are smarter than me. Not sure about your smartness as compared to anyone else though ....

Happy now, with my public accolade and acknowledgment? I hope so, for you deserve it.

I don't give a rat's ass what oil or ATF is available in Eugene Oregon, or in Dakka, Bangladesh, or anywhere else. Several years ago my farming relatives had that same oil in "45 gal" drums. Big deal. I told you what oil is available in Winnipeg - here and now, NOT there and then. I really don't know where you get into the diatribe about me buying parts at "fancy-pants parts stores and big-boxes." Don't these two types of establishments sell good oil? If not, why are they in business? I buy oil at a lubricant warehouse that just sells lubricants and Hastings filters. The place is called Oil Mart. Name brand oils, lubes and filters. Nothing fancy about that place except their customer service. Their Shell Rotella is a bit too expensive for me now that they don't sell the dino version, so I buy pails of URSA and the occasional case of Havoline. Right now I use Texaco oils with the ratings shown in my previous post. I am not going to buy recycled oil because I simply don't want to. The additive package is not good enough to be called 200 hr oil. URSA has that package. I am not sure of the Havoline being a 200 hr oil, but it was all they had at the time... As for C.R.A.P., what does this have to do with anything about oil available here? I am happy that you know the location of such places. Good for you, but so what? It is similar to comparing the price of gasoline here with the price in Boca Raton or Alice Springs. So what?

Yes Dan, you are smarter than me. Make sure you keep that in mind when you pontificate. Anyways, I don't mind being talked down to. Others may, but I don't. In the kind of work I do I have become quite used to it. However, putting ATF+3 oil into any tranny with 328,000 km or even 287,000 km on it won't make a rats ass difference on further longevity and performance as compared to putting in ATF+4, NO MATTER what you say. Throw the $$ away and use whatever you want. Longevity will NOT be enhanced. Not at 328,000km, nor at 287,000km. NO WAY! You have NO PROOF! Period! Another no-brainer! I don't care whose '92 chrysler automatic transmission it is, there is not a rats ass difference between ATF+3 and ATF+4 at those kilometers. If it MAKES a difference at those kilometers, state the definitive source and copy the words here with appropriate citations. Not just ONE paper, but replicated results. I repeat, replicated results noit just one study. One study means pilch in the total scheme of things. Perhaps the findings/conclusions in 1 study were a fluke. How did they deal with controlled variables or did they deal with them? No way of knowing if they were a fluke until replicated studies are done independently. That is CORRECT research. Since I acknowledge that you are smarter than me you must realize that basic premise of doing research in the engineering community. Only the gullible are sucked in by 1 definitive study. Also, forget Amsoil and other marketing hype. I think you owe this to the others who are reading this "discussion".

By the way, your comment "Newer oil = better oil = longer engine life" is not enough. Better oil in and of itself is no panacea. Even you must admit that maintenance as in CHANGING the oil with appropriate filter is also needed. I remember the lady in one of my grad school classes who replaced the engine in her minivan when she did not bother to change oil or even check it's level. She never looked at the oil from the day she drove the brand new minivan off the dealer's lot in Minnetonka, Minnesota. Maintenance?? What's that, she wondered. Brand new oil did not help her van in and of itself, did it?

"Daniel J. Stern" wrote:

Thanks, Ken! Your response was well worth the read. I, too, have learned to accept being talked down to as I work with the public all the time and it is just a matter of survival. Your humbleness is appreciated - I wish it was shared by more in this newsgroup.

RP

Hello everybody,

I am new here, and I freely admit I am not an expert on lubricants, or auto trans axles for that matter. I 'am' a die hard FWD MOPAR enthusiast however, and I have an above average understanding of relevant matters to this topic. I am in no way affiliated with either Daimler Chrysler, or any lubricant blender or distributing network. I am merely a private party having experience with the A604/41TE4 auto transaxles.

I have read with great interest the debate about ATF +3 and +4, verses Amsoil Type IV 'full synthetic' Universal ATF, and I wish to offer my limited knowledge and personal experience regarding this.

I do not care *who* is "right or wrong", and neither do I care much about posting style. The facts are what I am concerned with. I can only offer my personal experience and limited knowledge, because frankly it appears obvious to me, that statistics and fancy numbers hold little power to persuade these days regarding ATF and other lubricants. Really such debates are just arguments driven mainly by emotion, e.g, product and manufacturer loyalty based upon advertising hype and corporate propaganda [*spin*]. The facts, so far, have taken a back seat to the forgoing, regarding the ATF +3 and +4 vs alternatives debate.

Most of us are aware that for too long many if not most Transmission Shops, wrongly believe an A604 can handle even Dextron Mercon ATF, as long as a friction modifier is added. Many a sad A604 owner has learned however, that this is simply NOT true. But they obviously do not really know why this is so.

DC has been partly to blame for these misconceptions, because their TSB's on this issue have been until recently, ambiguous and open to interpretation. In fact even now, because of this, many A604 owners are still unsure if ATF +4 is suitable for *their year* of A604. Or whether or not ATF + 4 is a 'full synthetic' Type IV PAO ATF, or just a lower grade 'semi synthetic' Type III PAO ATF.

I am going to try now, to avoid laying out "facts" in a way which will only provoke an argument. HA! riiiiiiight. Instead I will TRY to offer the following, which I hope will assist you as it did me, to sort out the

*corporate spin and advertising hype* from good information.

I have gone through two A604's, despite my tendency to to be extremely conscientious about maintenance issues, and I became "absolutely paranoid" about my A604. Religiously checking the ATF level daily, carefully examining the fluid on the stick, watching temp levels on my AutoMeter Trans temp gauge, and reading to learn about this trans axle, even talking face to face with a few real experts.

As a result I became convinced that the A604/41TE4, as it is now, is a truly great design. It is a genuine marvel of technology. It's weakness has really been that existing ATF, even DC's new + 4, is simply not adequate to cool it and keep it free from micro-varnish. Although ATF + 4 is a step in the right direction, it is really a type IV PAO semi synthetic. As such it still has impurities, *which can and will* convert to micro-varnish etc, and it's *viscosity index* is inferior to a 'true full synthetic' type IV. It can NOT cool as well as a true Type IV full synthetic.

I recently did a complete flush and filter change, in an upgrade to a Type IV full synthetic ATF. I was going to go with Redline C+, but none was available in my area, and I wanted to do it before the weather here warms up any more than it is now. So I spoke at length with a tech at Amsoil named Kevin who posts on the Bob Is The Oil Guy forum. He carefully explained to me why their "universal" type IV full synthetic ATF, is not snake oil, as I thought it just "had to be". I mean, how could there be such a thing as a "universal" ATF?!

OK. Cut to the chase. I had my last A604 race built last year. Alloy spline and planetaries, the best Kevlar clutches, a premium TC and pumps, welded diff pin etc, and I changed from the 'old tech' tube and fin cooler to a stacked plate cooler. I only used MOPAR ATF +3. Still the damned thing would just get too hot during "spirited street driving", and especially in stop and go in town. All of this just left me "sick of the whole thing". I was on the verge of doing the 5 speed manual swap, despite the high cost in time and effort because I was getting the beginning signs of "problems", despite all the best parts and perfect maintenance! Only 8 months after the expensive rebuild, but *as the weather warmed up* it was getting a bit harder to move the handle from P to D, and 3rd was not as firm as it really should be. I knew the solenoid valve body was not old or defective, and my PRNDL switch was just fine, as were all the connections "down there".

I considered going to MOPAR ATF +4, despite the fact that, as usual, several Chrysler service reps had different interpretations of the DC TSBs. No one was sure if I even should change to ATF +4, until very recently.

At the advice of a trusted performance expert. I opened my mind and began to do research on the full synthetic alternative. I was always a, NO WAY JOSE Only MOPAR ATF +3 is going onto that baby, kind of person. But Joe has never given me bad advice, so I decided to look into what ATF +4 really is. Thank you Joe!

The fact the DC has NOT licensed the formula to others, as even FORD has their new ATF, and DC charges $25 a gallon for ATF +4, tells me that money is more important to them than we are. Well, OK, I love my local MOPAR parts man, and one dealership Service manager and dealership owner in my area, really is way above average. Great people. But face it, many dealerships are "less than trustworthy", and I do not trust Daimler at all, and for good reason.

So with an open mnd this time. I looked into Amsoil. I *agonized* over it. I read and I read. I talked to others who had switched to type IV PAO full synthetic ATF. Then I did it. I put it in, and let me tell you the STUFF ROCKS!

I am so glad that *I did the work*, to sort through all the hype and even well intended misconceptions from loyalists. For example, those who think that Mopar +4 is a true TYPE IV PAO full synthetic, are simply mistaken because it is only a TYPE III semi synthetic. Some people even think that ATF can somehow "sense what kind of trans it is in", and then "switch characteristics to meet the application". Trans fluid is not sentient. It senses nothing, and it can not "switch characteristics". ATF can do no more than behave within it's formulation parameters, and the formulation of a true full synthetic TYPE IV PAO fluid, is greatly superior, to any Type III semi synthetic. End of story.

My A604/41TE4 now runs 20 degrees F cooler, and shifts faster and firmer. I don't care if it is "supposed to last longer" or not. I do NOT care if I have to change it every 10K miles instead of tmy old 25K change ritual even. It is really worth the money too.

I know that any ATF capable of making my SVB function perfectly again, and enable my A604 to run cooler and shift that much better, is going to make my trans axle last a lot longer. All I have to do is change filters and pan fluid religiously, and watch my fluid level.

Yeah, it's sort of like before; but I am not "sweating it" anymore, because of the way my TRANS performs now. On a hot day, in stop and go traffic it no longer gets hot, and that lever easily and smoothly moves from P to D, even when I first start my engine. All just like it did the day it was race rebuilt.

OK. Now I am out of here. I am not going to argue irrelevant semantic points, and fend spin from well intended, lovable but misguided loyalists. I have given you good and honest advice. Call the Amsoil people yourself, and at least actually use some logic regarding this issue. In short. Open your mind and consider the facts for yourself. I will leave it to you to do that.

I just could not remain silent and let the BS rule on this subject. Amsoil is not snake oil. I am not going to become a distributer, but I have cleared my conscience, and my HOT 3.0 FWD MOPAR, now rocks even more than it did before.

Best wishes to all of you.

Hello everybody,

I am new here, and I freely admit I am not an expert on lubricants, or auto trans axles for that matter. I 'am' a die hard FWD MOPAR enthusiast however, and I have an above average understanding of relevant matters to this topic. I am in no way affiliated with either Daimler Chrysler, or any lubricant blender or distributing network. I am merely a private party having experience with the A604/41TE4 auto transaxles.

I have read with great interest the debate about ATF +3 and +4, verses Amsoil Type IV 'full synthetic' Universal ATF, and I wish to offer my limited knowledge and personal experience regarding this.

I do not care *who* is "right or wrong", and neither do I care much about posting style. The facts are what I am concerned with. I can only offer my personal experience and limited knowledge, because frankly it appears obvious to me, that statistics and fancy numbers hold little power to persuade these days regarding ATF and other lubricants. Really such debates are just arguments driven mainly by emotion, e.g, product and manufacturer loyalty based upon advertising hype and corporate propaganda [*spin*]. The facts, so far, have taken a back seat to the forgoing, regarding the ATF +3 and +4 vs alternatives debate.

Most of us are aware that for too long many if not most Transmission Shops, wrongly believe an A604 can handle even Dextron Mercon ATF, as long as a friction modifier is added. Many a sad A604 owner has learned however, that this is simply NOT true. But they obviously do not really know why this is so.

DC has been partly to blame for these misconceptions, because their TSB's on this issue have been until recently, ambiguous and open to interpretation. In fact even now, because of this, many A604 owners are still unsure if ATF +4 is suitable for *their year* of A604. Or whether or not ATF + 4 is a 'full synthetic' Type IV PAO ATF, or just a lower grade 'semi synthetic' Type III PAO ATF.

I am going to try now, to avoid laying out "facts" in a way which will only provoke an argument. HA! riiiiiiight. Instead I will TRY to offer the following, which I hope will assist you as it did me, to sort out the

*corporate spin and advertising hype* from good information.

I have gone through two A604's, despite my tendency to to be extremely conscientious about maintenance issues, and I became "absolutely paranoid" about my A604. Religiously checking the ATF level daily, carefully examining the fluid on the stick, watching temp levels on my AutoMeter Trans temp gauge, and reading to learn about this trans axle, even talking face to face with a few real experts.

As a result I became convinced that the A604/41TE4, as it is now, is a truly great design. It is a genuine marvel of technology. It's weakness has really been that existing ATF, even DC's new + 4, is simply not adequate to cool it and keep it free from micro-varnish. Although ATF + 4 is a step in the right direction, it is really a type IV PAO semi synthetic. As such it still has impurities, *which can and will* convert to micro-varnish etc, and it's *viscosity index* is inferior to a 'true full synthetic' type IV. It can NOT cool as well as a true Type IV full synthetic.

I recently did a complete flush and filter change, in an upgrade to a Type IV full synthetic ATF. I was going to go with Redline C+, but none was available in my area, and I wanted to do it before the weather here warms up any more than it is now. So I spoke at length with a tech at Amsoil named Kevin who posts on the Bob Is The Oil Guy forum. He carefully explained to me why their "universal" type IV full synthetic ATF, is not snake oil, as I thought it just "had to be". I mean, how could there be such a thing as a "universal" ATF?!

OK. Cut to the chase. I had my last A604 race built last year. Alloy spline and planetaries, the best Kevlar clutches, a premium TC and pumps, welded diff pin etc, and I changed from the 'old tech' tube and fin cooler to a stacked plate cooler. I only used MOPAR ATF +3. Still the damned thing would just get too hot during "spirited street driving", and especially in stop and go in town. All of this just left me "sick of the whole thing". I was on the verge of doing the 5 speed manual swap, despite the high cost in time and effort because I was getting the beginning signs of "problems", despite all the best parts and perfect maintenance! Only 8 months after the expensive rebuild, but *as the weather warmed up* it was getting a bit harder to move the handle from P to D, and 3rd was not as firm as it really should be. I knew the solenoid valve body was not old or defective, and my PRNDL switch was just fine, as were all the connections "down there".

I considered going to MOPAR ATF +4, despite the fact that, as usual, several Chrysler service reps had different interpretations of the DC TSBs. No one was sure if I even should change to ATF +4, until very recently.

At the advice of a trusted performance expert. I opened my mind and began to do research on the full synthetic alternative. I was always a, NO WAY JOSE Only MOPAR ATF +3 is going onto that baby, kind of person. But Joe has never given me bad advice, so I decided to look into what ATF +4 really is. Thank you Joe!

The fact the DC has NOT licensed the formula to others, as even FORD has their new ATF, and DC charges $25 a gallon for ATF +4, tells me that money is more important to them than we are. Well, OK, I love my local MOPAR parts man, and one dealership Service manager and dealership owner in my area, really is way above average. Great people. But face it, many dealerships are "less than trustworthy", and I do not trust Daimler at all, and for good reason.

So with an open mnd this time. I looked into Amsoil. I *agonized* over it. I read and I read. I talked to others who had switched to type IV PAO full synthetic ATF. Then I did it. I put it in, and let me tell you the STUFF ROCKS!

I am so glad that *I did the work*, to sort through all the hype and even well intended misconceptions from loyalists. For example, those who think that Mopar +4 is a true TYPE IV PAO full synthetic, are simply mistaken because it is only a TYPE III semi synthetic. Some people even think that ATF can somehow "sense what kind of trans it is in", and then "switch characteristics to meet the application". Trans fluid is not sentient. It senses nothing, and it can not "switch characteristics". ATF can do no more than behave within it's formulation parameters, and the formulation of a true full synthetic TYPE IV PAO fluid, is greatly superior, to any Type III semi synthetic. End of story.

My A604/41TE4 now runs 20 degrees F cooler, and shifts faster and firmer. I don't care if it is "supposed to last longer" or not. I do NOT care if I have to change it every 10K miles instead of tmy old 25K change ritual even. It is really worth the money too.

I know that any ATF capable of making my SVB function perfectly again, and enable my A604 to run cooler and shift that much better, is going to make my trans axle last a lot longer. All I have to do is change filters and pan fluid religiously, and watch my fluid level.

Yeah, it's sort of like before; but I am not "sweating it" anymore, because of the way my TRANS performs now. On a hot day, in stop and go traffic it no longer gets hot, and that lever easily and smoothly moves from P to D, even when I first start my engine. All just like it did the day it was race rebuilt.

OK. Now I am out of here. I am not going to argue irrelevant semantic points, and fend spin from well intended, lovable but misguided loyalists. I have given you good and honest advice. Call the Amsoil people yourself, and at least actually use some logic regarding this issue. In short. Open your mind and consider the facts for yourself. I will leave it to you to do that.

I just could not remain silent and let the BS rule on this subject. Amsoil is not snake oil. I am not going to become a distributer, but I have cleared my conscience, and my HOT 3.0 FWD MOPAR, now rocks even more than it did before.

Best wishes to all of you.

Hello everybody,

I am new here, and I freely admit I am not an expert on lubricants, or auto trans axles for that matter. I am a die hard FWD MOPAR enthusiast however, and I have an above average understanding of relevant matters to this topic. I am in no way affiliated with either Daimler Chrysler, or any lubricant blender or distributing network. I am merely a private party having experience with the A604/41TE4 auto transaxles.

I have read with great interest the debate about ATF +3 and +4, verses Amsoil Type IV 'full synthetic' Universal ATF, and I wish to offer my limited knowledge and personal experience regarding this.

I do not care *who* is "right or wrong", and neither do I care much about posting style. The facts are what I am concerned with, and I can only offer my personal experience and limited knowledge because frankly, it appears obvious to me that statistics and fancy numbers hold little power to persuade these days regarding ATF and other lubricants. Really such debates are just arguments driven mainly by emotion, e.g, product and manufacturer loyalty based upon advertising hype and corporate propaganda

*spin*. The facts, so far have taken a back seat to the forgoing, regarding the ATF +3 and +4 vs alternatives debate.

Most of us are aware that for too long, many if not most Transmission Shops wrongly believe an A604 can handle even Dextron Mercon ATF, as long as a friction modifier is added. Many a sad A604 owner has learned however, that this is simply NOT true.

DC has been partly to blame for these misconceptions, because their TSB's on this issue have been until recently, ambiguous and open to interpretation. In fact even now, because of this, many A604 owners are still unsure if ATF +4 is suitable for *their year* of A604. Or whether or not ATF + 4 is really even a 'full synthetic' Type IV PAO ATF, or just a lower grade 'semi synthetic' Type III PAO ATF.

I am going to try now, to avoid laying out "facts" in a way which will only provoke an argument. Instead I will offer the following, which I hope will assist you as it did me, to sort out the *corporate spin and advertising hype* from good information.

I have gone through two A604's, despite my tendency to to be extremely conscientious about maintenance issues, and I became "absolutely paranoid" about my A604. Religiously checking the ATF level daily, carefully examining the fluid on the stick, watching temp levels on my AutoMeter Trans temp gauge, and reading to learn about this trans axle, even talking face to face with a few real experts. As a result I became convinced that the A604/41TE4, as it is now, is a great design. It is a true marvel of technology. It's true weakness is that existing ATF, even DC's new + 4, is simply not adequate to cool it and keep it free from micro-varnish. Although ATF + 4 is a step in the right direction, it is really a type IV PAO semi synthetic. As such it still has impurities, which can and will, convert to micro-varnish etc, and it's *viscosity index* is inferior to a 'true full synthetic' type IV. It can NOT cool as well as a true Type IV full synthetic.

I recently did a complete flush and filter change, in an upgrade to a Type IV full synthetic ATF. I was going to go with Redline C+, but none was available in my area, and I wanted to do it before the weather here warms up any more than it is now. So I spoke at length with a tech at Amsoil named Kevin who posts on the Bob Is The Oil Guy forum. He carefully explained to me why their "universal" type IV full synthetic ATF, is not snake oil, as I thought it just "had to be". I mean, how could there be such a thing as a "universal" ATF?!

OK. Cut to the chase. I had my last A604 race built last year. Alloy spline and planetaries, the best Kevlar clutches, a premium TC and pumps, welded diff pin etc, and I changed from the 'old tech' tube and fin cooler to a stacked plate cooler. I only used MOPAR ATF +3. Still the damned thing would just get too hot during "spirited street driving", and especially in stop and go in town. All of this just left me "sick of the whole thing". I was on the verge of doing the 5 speed manual swap, despite the high cost in time and effort because I was getting the beginning signs of "problems", despite all the best parts and perfect maintenance! Only 8 months after the expensive rebuild, and it was getting a bit harder to move the handle from P to D, and 3rd was not as firm as it really should be. I knew the solenoid valve body was not old or defective, and my PRNDL switch was just fine, as were all the connections "down there".

I considered going to MOPAR ATF +4, despite the fact that several Chrysler service reps had different interpretations of the DC TSBs. No one was sure if I even should change to ATF +4, until very recently. At the advice of a trusted performance expert.. I began to do research on the full synthetic alternative. I was a NO WAY JOSE! Only MOPAR ATF +3 is going onto that baby kind of person. But Joe has never given me bad advice, so I decided to look into what ATF +4 really is.

The fact the DC has NOT licensed the formula to others, as even FORD has their new ATF, and DC charges $25 a gallon for ATF +4. Well, OK, I love my local MOPAR parts man, and one dealership Service manager, and the dealership owner in my are is way above average. Great people. But face it, many dealerships are "less than trustworthy", and I do not trust Daimler at all, for good reason.

So with an open mnd this time. I looked into Amsoil. I *agonized* over it. I read and I read. I talked to others who had switched to type IV PAO full synthetic ATF. Then I did it. I put it in, and let me tell you the STUFF ROCKS!

I am so glad that *I did the work*, to sort through all the hype and even well intended misconceptions from loyalists. For example, those who think that Mopar +4 is a true TYPE IV PAO full synthetic, are simply mistaken because it is only a TYPE III semi synthetic. Some people even think that ATF can somehow "sense what kind of trans it is in", and then "switch characteristics to meet the application". Trans fluid is not sentient. It sense nothing. ATF can do no more than behave within it's formulation parameters, and the formulation of a true full synthetic TYPE IV PAO fluid, is greatly superior to any Type III semi synthetic. End of story.

My A604/41TE4 now runs 20 degrees F cooler, and shifts faster and firmer. I don't care if it is "supposed to last longer" or not. I do NOT care if I have to change it every 10K miles instead of tmy old 25K change ritual even. I know that any ATF capable of making my SVB function perfectly again, and enable my A604 to run cooler and shift that much better, is going to make my trans axle last a lot longer. All I have to do is change filters and pan fluid religiously, and watch my fluid level. Yeah, it's sort of like before. But I am not "sweating it" anymore, because of the way my TRANS performs now. On a hot day, in stop and go traffic it will no longer gets hot, and that lever easily and smoothly moves from P to D even when I first start my engine, like it did the day it was race rebuilt.

OK. Now I am out of here. I am not going to argue irrelevant semantic points, and fend spin from well intended, lovable but misguided loyalists. I have given you good and honest advice. Call the Amsoil people yourself, and at least actually use some logic regarding this issue. In short. Open your mind. I just could not remain silent and let the BS rule on this subject. Amsoil is not snake oil. I am not going to become a distributer, but I have cleared my conscience, and my ht 3.0 MOPAR now rocks even more than it did before.

Best wishes to all of you.

Hello everybody,

I am new here, and I freely admit I am not an expert on lubricants, or auto trans axles for that matter. I am a die hard FWD MOPAR enthusiast however, and I have an above average understanding of relevant matters to this topic. I am in no way affiliated with either Daimler Chrysler, or any lubricant blender or distributing network. I am merely a private party having experience with the A604/41TE4 auto transaxles.

I have read with great interest the debate about ATF +3 and +4, verses Amsoil Type IV 'full synthetic' Universal ATF, and I wish to offer my limited knowledge and personal experience regarding this.

I do not care *who* is "right or wrong", and neither do I care much about posting style. The facts are what I am concerned with, and I can only offer my personal experience and limited knowledge because frankly, it appears obvious to me that statistics and fancy numbers hold little power to persuade these days regarding ATF and other lubricants. Really such debates are just arguments driven mainly by emotion, e.g, product and manufacturer loyalty based upon advertising hype and corporate propaganda

*spin*. The facts, so far have taken a back seat to the forgoing, regarding the ATF +3 and +4 vs alternatives debate.

Most of us are aware that for too long, many if not most Transmission Shops wrongly believe an A604 can handle even Dextron Mercon ATF, as long as a friction modifier is added. Many a sad A604 owner has learned however, that this is simply NOT true.

DC has been partly to blame for these misconceptions, because their TSB's on this issue have been until recently, ambiguous and open to interpretation. In fact even now, because of this, many A604 owners are still unsure if ATF +4 is suitable for *their year* of A604. Or whether or not ATF + 4 is really even a 'full synthetic' Type IV PAO ATF, or just a lower grade 'semi synthetic' Type III PAO ATF.

I am going to try now, to avoid laying out "facts" in a way which will only provoke an argument. Instead I will offer the following, which I hope will assist you as it did me, to sort out the *corporate spin and advertising hype* from good information.

I have gone through two A604's, despite my tendency to to be extremely conscientious about maintenance issues, and I became "absolutely paranoid" about my A604. Religiously checking the ATF level daily, carefully examining the fluid on the stick, watching temp levels on my AutoMeter Trans temp gauge, and reading to learn about this trans axle, even talking face to face with a few real experts. As a result I became convinced that the A604/41TE4, as it is now, is a great design. It is a true marvel of technology. It's true weakness is that existing ATF, even DC's new + 4, is simply not adequate to cool it and keep it free from micro-varnish. Although ATF + 4 is a step in the right direction, it is really a type IV PAO semi synthetic. As such it still has impurities, which can and will, convert to micro-varnish etc, and it's *viscosity index* is inferior to a 'true full synthetic' type IV. It can NOT cool as well as a true Type IV full synthetic.

I recently did a complete flush and filter change, in an upgrade to a Type IV full synthetic ATF. I was going to go with Redline C+, but none was available in my area, and I wanted to do it before the weather here warms up any more than it is now. So I spoke at length with a tech at Amsoil named Kevin who posts on the Bob Is The Oil Guy forum. He carefully explained to me why their "universal" type IV full synthetic ATF, is not snake oil, as I thought it just "had to be". I mean, how could there be such a thing as a "universal" ATF?!

OK. Cut to the chase. I had my last A604 race built last year. Alloy spline and planetaries, the best Kevlar clutches, a premium TC and pumps, welded diff pin etc, and I changed from the 'old tech' tube and fin cooler to a stacked plate cooler. I only used MOPAR ATF +3. Still the damned thing would just get too hot during "spirited street driving", and especially in stop and go in town. All of this just left me "sick of the whole thing". I was on the verge of doing the 5 speed manual swap, despite the high cost in time and effort because I was getting the beginning signs of "problems", despite all the best parts and perfect maintenance! Only 8 months after the expensive rebuild, and it was getting a bit harder to move the handle from P to D, and 3rd was not as firm as it really should be. I knew the solenoid valve body was not old or defective, and my PRNDL switch was just fine, as were all the connections "down there".

I considered going to MOPAR ATF +4, despite the fact that several Chrysler service reps had different interpretations of the DC TSBs. No one was sure if I even should change to ATF +4, until very recently. At the advice of a trusted performance expert.. I began to do research on the full synthetic alternative. I was a NO WAY JOSE! Only MOPAR ATF +3 is going onto that baby kind of person. But Joe has never given me bad advice, so I decided to look into what ATF +4 really is.

The fact the DC has NOT licensed the formula to others, as even FORD has their new ATF, and DC charges $25 a gallon for ATF +4. Well, OK, I love my local MOPAR parts man, and one dealership Service manager, and the dealership owner in my are is way above average. Great people. But face it, many dealerships are "less than trustworthy", and I do not trust Daimler at all, for good reason.

So with an open mnd this time. I looked into Amsoil. I *agonized* over it. I read and I read. I talked to others who had switched to type IV PAO full synthetic ATF. Then I did it. I put it in, and let me tell you the STUFF ROCKS!

I am so glad that *I did the work*, to sort through all the hype and even well intended misconceptions from loyalists. For example, those who think that Mopar +4 is a true TYPE IV PAO full synthetic, are simply mistaken because it is only a TYPE III semi synthetic. Some people even think that ATF can somehow "sense what kind of trans it is in", and then "switch characteristics to meet the application". Trans fluid is not sentient. It sense nothing. ATF can do no more than behave within it's formulation parameters, and the formulation of a true full synthetic TYPE IV PAO fluid, is greatly superior to any Type III semi synthetic. End of story.

My A604/41TE4 now runs 20 degrees F cooler, and shifts faster and firmer. I don't care if it is "supposed to last longer" or not. I do NOT care if I have to change it every 10K miles instead of tmy old 25K change ritual even. I know that any ATF capable of making my SVB function perfectly again, and enable my A604 to run cooler and shift that much better, is going to make my trans axle last a lot longer. All I have to do is change filters and pan fluid religiously, and watch my fluid level. Yeah, it's sort of like before. But I am not "sweating it" anymore, because of the way my TRANS performs now. On a hot day, in stop and go traffic it will no longer gets hot, and that lever easily and smoothly moves from P to D even when I first start my engine, like it did the day it was race rebuilt.

OK. Now I am out of here. I am not going to argue irrelevant semantic points, and fend spin from well intended, lovable but misguided loyalists. I have given you good and honest advice. Call the Amsoil people yourself, and at least actually use some logic regarding this issue. In short. Open your mind. I just could not remain silent and let the BS rule on this subject. Amsoil is not snake oil. I am not going to become a distributer, but I have cleared my conscience, and my ht 3.0 MOPAR now rocks even more than it did before.

Best wishes to all of you.

Sorry about the double post. When it didn;t appear, I thought I accidentally hit reset, instead of post.

Please delete the second one.

Actually, there were four posts, not too. And you did at best a mediocre job of packaging the AMSOIL "corporate spin" into a post that was supposed to appear to be from an "average Joe" just wanting to do the world a favor. The only thing worse than AMSOIL spam is 4X AMSOIL spam. Try again when you learn something more about both lubricants and posting on usenet.

Matt

Yes. I see now there were four replies, and not just two. I already apologized, but just to make you happy. I apologize again. LOL!

I also see you can count to four. Please count these also then.

1. I am not a liar.

1. I honestly have nothing to do with amsoil.

2. Cynicism is one thing, but *trolling* may be a better word to describe your post.

Go ahead and pay Daimler full synthetic prices for their semi synthetic +4 garbage. It's no skin off my nose.

Yes. I see now there were four replies, and not just two. I already apologized, but just to make you happy. I apologize again. LOL!

I also see you can count to four. Please count these also then.

1. I am not a liar.

1. I honestly have nothing to do with amsoil.

2. Cynicism is one thing, but *trolling* may be a better word to describe your post.

Go ahead and pay Daimler full synthetic prices for their semi synthetic +4 garbage. It's no skin off my nose.

So now +4 is garbage.

Richard.