a604 Limp, Rebuilt, Sensors replaced, solenoid replaced still Limps!

My friend was not a longstanding customer of the GM dealer either.

Dealers charge PREMIUM DOLLAR. Basically, it was their fault that they could not find the problem quickly. They were sure they would have had the guys car working in a day or two. But the agreement was to provide him a loaner car until his was fixed!

My friend did NOT just walkin and say give me a car for a month. Techincally, it is not what he wanted. All he wanted was 1) wheels to get to work, and 2) his car fixed right.

He did go to the dealership at my suggestion after seveal shops could not find the problem. And I hear this more and more from independant shops. I was having a problem with the ABS on my 94 Acclaim. And my #1 shop told me that there was ONE thing they would try to fix it, and if that did not work they were refering me to the dealer because the DC ABS system on the car was "a piece of crap".

Be that as it may, the dealers are the experts (supposedly). 5 star dealers are supposed to get that rating for superior customer service. So, if you are willing to pay the dealer service rate, and give them the time required to properly service the car, then why would they not welcome you and attempt to accomodate your needs???

After all, if they fix the car quickly and correctly, would you not tend to become a return / repeat customer????

Dealers usually have a fleet of cars that are offered to customers as loaners. It is a pure marketing write-off for them! They claim the depreciation as a write-off, and sell the cars as "new" "used" vehicles with full warranty for less, but they are not losing money! The theory is that if you are getting your OLD car fixed (again) and they give you this nice NEW car, some people are going to say "WOW, I really like these new cars! Better gas mileage, nicer creature comforts, easy to drive! I am tired of getting that old clunker fixed, I'm going to trade it in on one of these!"

Lo and behold, if the new car is good, it can actually sell itself. It is a salesmans dream! A satisified customer just walks in out of the blue and says "I want it, now!". Sale is signed, sealed, and car delivered with minimum work required. (ANother9one bites the dust! ;)

Dealerships exist for two reas>The dealership is going to give a loaner for a month for $800.00 of labor? I

Damn, Bill, I suspected I had that screwed up. I could never remember current flow direction in a diode.

That one I did remember, which is why I said to get the biggest wattage you could fit in there.

I think the cost difference is under $5 between the two, and I've always leaned toward massively derating replacement components that have failed on the assumption that if they had been properly sized in the beginning they wouldn't have failed.

Only preferred if your manufacturing, where saving a buck or so on a component means a huge amount.

Ted

Richard - read my original reply.

Your symptoms are identical to mine : goes into limp; shut it down; start it up and it's fine; might stay fine for a few minutes or even a day; then it comes back, etc etc. In my case the problem was fixed by replacing a wiring harness. The dealer went through thousands of dollars of mechanical parts with no effect before they finally nailed it as an electrical problem. This was all 7 or 8 years ago so I no longer have the details about which harness.

The work was done at this dealer :

Perhaps your dealer can get in touch with them for advice. The Technical Dept for Chrysler Canada got involved with this one because it was a warranty job and the car was Leased by G.E. Capital - and G.E. carries a big stick.

Phil

Richard Ahlquist wrote:

Obviously you know nothing about service loaner cars. They are not write-offs. And they do cost the dealership money. Do you know what the insurance rates are for Loaner cars? Garage policies are over $30 a day per car. And since they are a vehicle that is also for resale, it is not a Write off! Why do you think the loaners have miles on them? Main reason is because they are Used cars bought at Auction (ex-rental / ex-company cars) DC even recommendsdealers not use new cars, to begin with, and if it was a new car put into service the dealer would lose there shirt. And it is that reason that MOST dealers do not even give Demos to sales people anymore because they are money losers. And the fact is depending on the size of the dealership they can see over 100 Service customers a day. And the dealership will not have 100 loaner cars for them. So they have three maybe 5 max. And they will not give one to someone who comes in for the first time with a used car that was never purchased from them. They keep them available for there customers, and repeat customers.

If it was a warranty problem Chrysler got involved because of the cost of the dealer replacing all the parts without a solution. As a matter of Fact DC more then likely ended up getting charged back every penny they spent replacing parts on the car, that did not fix the problem. GE does not wield a big stick with Chrysler. DC Canada actually does not look highly with GE as Ge Fleet services does not properly insure that there fleet vehicles are maintained, and DC refuses to take back any GE fleet vehicle back because of it.

Ok so today here is what I have.

Went for a drive to get gas, went into limp very soon after that. So I took it over to Advance Auto parts to see if their code scanner could have any better luck. It was able to read it. Here is what it dumped.

ENG: 24/P0123 TPS Voltage High

ENG: 33/----- A/C Clutch Relay CKT

Not much help there, the 33 code according to the code list I have says it could also be the following;

A/C pressure sensor volts too high A/C pressure sensor volts too lo Speed control switch always low Speed control switch always high Speed control solenoid circuits High speed condenser fan control relay circuit High fan and high fan ground control relay circuit

So nothing for the transmission or why it went into limp because according to the tranny manual the TPS cant force the tranny into limp.

I did notice today that the tranny is exhibiting two other odd symptoms. Sometimes when at a stop, it takes time for it to go into

1st gear and shift rather hard. Other times when coming to a stop it will downshift roughly at 28mph as I am stopping.

I checked with Dodge today to see if they can provide a replacement wiring harness for the TCM and sensors, they said they show a 'Trans Wiring' item on the books and that its just about $280 and has to be special ordered.

So if I were to get the trans wiring, for $280 and the computer from Dodge $250 and have them set the pinion angle and update the flash $90/hour labor 1 hour minimum. Do yall think this should settle things up? Oh yeah add in TPS for $80.

I said they were a TAX write off, not a collission write off.

All of which is written off by accountants as a "cost of doing business".

They write down the value of the car at an accellerate depreciation rate. Then, they sell the car off for much less than "new", but for higher than the depreciated value on the "books". So it IS still profitable for them to do this.

Not sure how it is now, but this never used to be the case. Loaner cars from DEALERSHIPS around here used to be cars that were at most 2 model years old. Now independant service garages... mostly had the most aweful beaters umaginable.

You lose the value, but get a tax credit in return. Like I said, cost of doing business.

No shit Sherlock. (pardon the sarcasm)

Like I said, you have to book a loaner car in advance! This is because the dealer only has a limited number of service loaner cars. I think this dealer had 5 or maybe 10 MAXIMUM, and they did NOT advertise the fact either.

Fact still remains, business is built - or lost - one customer at a time. Of course the longstanding customers are going to get "dibs" on loaner cars. But if the OP books far enough in advance, and discusses the matter with the Service Manager first, then there really should not be a problem! If there is, don't go to that dealer.

Most dealres I have dealt with are at least approachable as long as you are not being demanding or an asshole. You approach, and it is a business propsition. You are looking for service, and good quality work at a fair price. In return you are offering customer loyalty, and a lonstanding, mutually benficial, business relationship.

Surely a competant service manager could see the advantage in gaining such a customer, yes???

Besides, at this point what has the OP got to loose??? The worst the dealership could say is "No", in which case they loose the business, and the OP is no further behind than before!

To the OP, Go for it! No guts, no glory!

Uh huh... Let me guess, the shop the rebuilt the trans used Dexron III trans fluid?

My A604 used to downshift exactly as you described after being rebuilt. It was not until I had the fluid and filter replaced a couple of years later that the problem went away. I discovered that most trans shops used Dexron III with an additional addtion of "LubeGuard". The shop that dis the fuild & filter change used ATF+4!

Double check with the shop that rebuilt your trans several times. My bet is that they used the wrong fluid to save money (their money) and which if left in your trans will lead to premature failure and repeat business for them!

You know something, this is STILL a "shotgun" approach! No matter how logical your approach, you do NOT know if ANY of the above will solve your problem without a definitave diagnosis!

From where I sit, you simply cannot aford NOT to go and get the problem diagnosed! Until you have a diagnosis, you could just keep pouring money into the thing!

I am sure you realize at this point that your transmission may have been just fine to begin with! How much was that? $1800????

I think that the dealer could spend 2 hours on this, so $180, and then tell you what the F&ck is wrong. THEN, rather than replace a whole bunch of parts and pray you got "the one", you could spend exactly what you HAVE to spend and get the car fixed properly.

By avoiding spending money for a proper diagnosis, you are being penny wise, and pound foolish.

Hey it is your dime, but YOU are the one who said you were trying to save money. I don't see how spending $1800, plus how much for a tow, and then throwing another - what - $700 at this problem with NO IDEA of whether or not this will fix the problem is "saving money".

How are you going to feel if you spend the extra $700 (plus tax), and the problem persists????

How much is this car worth anyways???

Just my $0.02

Newman. It is not a tax writeoff. The dealer has to resell the vehicle. Legally he cannot write of the losses of a loaner then resale the car. That's fraud. He has to eat those losses. They can only write down the value of depreciation on vehicles not licensed, not on vehicles being used as loaners. Those have to be licensed to the dealership, and all losses on "of use" vehicles are the dealerships responsibility. So he buys a car with

12,000 km's at the auction for $15,000, licenses it, insures it and uses it as a dealership loaner, after one year, it has 30,000 km's and has a value of $10,000. Guess what, he lost $5,000 in depreciation, license and insurance fees. He cannot write it off as he is reselling it as a used car on his lot. So he just ate over $5000, per car! That is why some dealerships get tight giving out loaners especially slow periods like winter. They are not selling cars, not getting service work, and are loosing money. So they clamp up extra's. Did you know most dealerships actually lose money in January and February.

I really love how you guys think dealerships are all rolling in the dough. Do you even know how much it costs the average dealership a day, just to turn on the lights?

I used to work with DC and called on many dealers. Did you know that one dealer actually had a Honda Motorcycle shop, and made more money selling a Honda lawnmower, then on a car? Made more then double selling a $26,000 goldwing then two Fully loaded Gr. Cherokke limiteds?

You are probably right, it wouldnt suprise me in the least hell I dont even think thats my tranny in the car anymore. The one that was in there when I took it to the shop had writing on top in that yellow paint pen wrecking yards use and had a dar dirty bellhousing. This one is shiny and clean. No I dont think they cleaned mine because at the place where the writing was is a factory sticker of some sort that looks like its been on there for years. In addition when they replaced the #$@$@ solenoid pack they didnt put the sount suppressor back over it so not the solenoids are much louder. Maybe I will have the DC Shop just flush the fluid just in case the old tranny shop lies...

Here is my problem, I took it to Dodge once, and they offierd to 'fix' my problem by replacing the two speed sensors and the TPS for $510. I replaced the speed sensors and it had no effect. I am now dealing with a different dealership though.

What I want isnt too much to ask, I want to walk in and drop off my car. Have them fix the damn limp mode issue and have it BE FIXED. The problem is its so damn incosistiently going into limp mode that no dealership is going to agree to this. They can change out 100 things and it may still go into limp a week later. Since none of the local dealerships is giving loaners I cant afford to have my car in the shop every other week while they figure out wth is wrong. Thats why I am moving to the shotgun approach. Yes its stupid to buy an engine when the only thing that needs to be changed is a leaky valve cover gasket, however, when you cant find the bloody leak and dont have the luxury of spare vehicles to drive while someone figures out your problem you may just have to go BAM.

Initally my transmission was fine, when I took it to Dodge. I replaced the sensors took it to work and it dropped into limp on the freeway. That evening when I went to leave work there was no 2nd gear left.

Thats assuming in those 2 hours it goes into limp. Since the computer isnt returning any codes how are they to guess it? Seriously I'm not being a piss ass here.

The tow was $155 of which my insurance will reimbusre $50. I am trying to save money but I have other costs to weigh too such as the impact at home of not having the car for a month.

I paid $3800+tax for the car on 2/23/06

Always welcome!!

Hi Richard...

Just thinking out of the box...

Your original message had the dealer wanting to change the in/out speed sensors AND the tps. You changed the sensors, but left the tps alone.

Now your read-out indicates a tps fault.

Is it at all possible that you're not going into limp mode at all, but rather that the faulty tps is telling the ecu that you've have it completely floored, and the ecu is in turn telling the tcu to go into "passing" (2nd) gear?

Running away now :)

Take care.

Ken

ROTFLMAO

Cute idea and not entirely impossible. Since when it happens the car stumbles significantly I imagine it could be happening this way. Heck at this point I'm nto ruling anything out.

I had piped up about the ATF +3. Someone here used AT +4, but the non-synthetic ATF +3 is closest to what the A604 was designed for. I also had the TCM flashed but my problem had been spelled out, a shifting problem with tell-tale shuddering around 37 mph. Common enough that it had a nickname, the 37 mph shudder :)

Now about the harness. Expensive. From computers and electronics, there can be very strange problems caused by connectors. Here's some ideas. Reseating of course. Cleaning up with alcohol of course, maybe a fine screwdriver, Q-tips, maybe a very fine file but be careful not to scrap away any metal coatings. Using an eraser and more alcohol. And then there used to be a very expensive, not expensive by car standards, but a chemical that ran around $22 for a very small bottle that could be applied to connectors, like computer boards, when all else seemed to fail. They must still make stuff like that? Gets rid of gremlins, as these unknown, bad connectored, signals were called. Maybe have new names now.

I guess if all else failed, then I get out the ohmmeter and very carefully, usually with straight pins, not pretty but somewhat effective, I would take readings on all the wires that I suspected of problems. I don't know if this is possible in your harness. Maybe the harness is round so you can't pin prick the wires easily as in a ribbon or straight harness. In any case, from tip to stern, I would want to see a reading similar to the ohmmeter with the leads touching themselves directly, usually around 0.6 ohms for my good but cheap 4 digits multimeter.

Just some more thoughts, but from a signal processing viewpoint, not an automobile since I also don't do cars any more. You might also try Allpar.com and other places where there might be other DC people who are expert mechanics or trouble-shooters. I got a lot of advice from Allpar.com and from this newsgroup. A lot of very technical stuff came from Allpar.com.

A long time ago, when Chrysler was owned by the Americans and not the Germans, there used to be a "zone representative" who would intercede. Usually in case of money disputes but also bring access to technical expertise. That was really nice to do. But then the cars had room to work on the engines and I could follow the FSM a lot easier too. In any case, or this case, does this still exist? A special place to call in Chrysler when having really bad problems? Sometimes the I would complain and complain again and the zone rep would come down to the dealer.

What happened with the zener diode, did you replace it? Maybe throw a toroidal choke around the harness? Don't laugh. On back of CRT monitors, they still have those on the signal cables, it's a round thingee, metallic, looks like a tubular magnet. Anything to keep the signals flowing and true.

The stuff used to be called "Cramolin". It came in a RED and a BLUE formula. The RED was a contact cleaner, and the Blue was a contact preservative.

I used these both on audio connections, and in automotive applications. They worked great.

Here is a link to the manufacturer:

It is now called "ContaClean"

"CONTACLEAN" "Oil-based Powerful Contact Cleaner dissolving Oxide and Sulphide Layers.

"CONTACLEAN efficiently removes oxide and sulphide layers from metallic contact surfaces of any kind. Simultaneously, special inhibitors ensure long-lasting lubrication and corrosion protection. Reduces contact resistance that leads to failures, and eliminates voltage drops. Durable preservation of the perfect operational reliability of all electro-mechanical contacts. CONTACLEAN has been a well-proven agent in radio and television engineering as well as in laboratory and after-sales service for a long time.

Unfortunately, I have no idea where the heck you buy the stuff. A quickie Google shows that it is supposedly available in the USA, but there is NO reference I could find to a store you might locate the stuff at. If you can find it, it IS the best.

Failing that, there is also DeOXit from

This may be more available.

Yeah, but the problem in intermittent! Make sure you use a fairly sensitive ANALOG meter. If you use a digital meter, the display wont even flicker. At least with an ANALOG meter movement, an instantaneous pulse will case the needle to deflect a bit, and you have a chance of seeing it.

The other thing about this loaner car issue is that the idea that someone bringing in an "old clunker" to a dealership to get it fixed is going to come back from the loaner car and immediately buy a new car is a fantasy, it almost never happens.

New car buyers typically aren't the kind of people that wring every last mile out of their car. A few of them are, but most are the folks that trade in their

2-4 year old car for a new one. They aren't driving old clunkers, if anything they are turning the car in the second the warranty runs out.

The old clunker drivers are the folks on the bottom of the economic scale who cannot afford to depreciation loss of buying a new car. And they hardly ever go to a dealership, if the old clunker breaks down to the amount that an independent cannot fix it, then off it goes to the wrecker, there's plenty more old clunkers where it came from.

The folks that could be enticed to go to a dealership for repairs who normally frequent independents are the folks that are first generation used car buyers, these are the folks that buy cars that the new car buyers have traded in. Thie cars still have a high enough blue book that the owners would seriously contemplate throwing $1500 in repair costs at a dealership into them. They aren't going to want to buy a new car for replacement, and they aren't going to be that interested in buying a used car because they know that any used car they buy will probably be in no better shape than the one that they have.

The argument that NewMan is making is the sort of thing that sounds like someone who has no intention of buying a new car would be trying to use on a car dealership to con them out of a loaner car. It does not pass the sniff test. And also I am always suspicious of "tax write off" arguments anyway. In order for any business to take advantage of a "big tax write off" they have to have profit to write it off against. What the hell good is a $50,000 tax write off when the dealership has only declared a profit of $20K for the year?

And before anyone starts in with the dealership owners are rolling in dough argument, let me point out that just about all dealership owners pay themselves a salary that gets pulled out BEFORE profit is declared. If I owned a dealership that would normally declare a profit of $1,000,000 for the year, I'd pay myself a salary of $990,000 and send most of it into a tax sheleter, and make for damn sure that the dealership only realized a very small profit. Thus any tax write offs would really be coming off my salary, since I'd have to reduce my salary to increase the dealership profit so they could then take the larger tax write off. Get it?

Ted

Hi Richard...

If it's of any interest at all, I can tell you that your tps is directly connected to your tcu.

The center connector pin (the slider on the pot - OR/DB) is connected to both the pcm AND to pin 12 on your tcu.

The ground connector (BK/LB) is connected to both the pcm AND to pin 51 on your tcu as well as other sensors.

The remaining connector (VT/WT) is the 5 volt supply to the tps as well as other sensors.

Take care.

Ken

The NEW selonoid packs do NOT come with a sound suppressor, they redesigned them so that wasn't needed.

I already gave you a link here:

which had a nice picture of a freshly rebuilt trans with a selonoid pack on it - did you see any sound suppressor? Did you even bother looking and reading through the God-damned site?

And, if you had paid the $510 you would have got genuine Mopar sensors in there, and if it kept having problems then Dodge would be eating the cost of further replacements.

Why do you say that? The trans goes into limp mode because the computer tells it to - and every time the computer puts it into limp mode it sets a code.

You have them fix it and take the car away and bring it back a day later claiming it went into limp mode - well they can scan it and see what the problem is.

Richard, your transmission was NOT fine. A good solid transmission won't shred itself going into limp mode on the freeway - I've had it happen to me before and the trans didn't lose 2nd gear, so have a lot of people. You already said you had a wrecking yard trans in that vehicle. It was very likely near the end of it's lifespan.

IF IT GOES INTO LIMP MODE THE TCM WILL HAVE STORED CODES, PERIOD!!!!!

NO IT WAS NOT ABLE TO READ IT!!!

Here is what it dumped.

THAT IS BECAUSE THE ADVANCE AUTO SCANNER WAS NOT READING TRANS CODES

Richard, I ALREADY TOLD YOU that there are TWO separate connectors in your vehicle for a scanner to plug into. One is connected to the CCD bus that the TCM is connected to. The other is connected to the engine computer. The Advance Auto scanner was connected to the engine computer not to the CCD bus so it cannot pull codes from the TCM.

I already told you that the only scanner that will pull trans codes is something like the OTC Monitor 4000 that was listed in my pictorial that you obviously didn't read, or a dealership scanner. The OTC does it because that scanner can plug into BOTH scan ports if the correct cable is used.

And I already told you that you will not find these scanners behind the counter of an auto parts store.

Any wrecking yard that has one of these can provide one. Go visit a u-pull-it yard.

No, not if the problem is the sensors.

Ted

Where is this connector at? Since the car does have an ODB-II connector I thought it would be the point to get into the CCD bus?