Gulf Coast part 2

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Yeah, you are sorry, thats a fact.

Better prepared for what? I assume you have the crystal ball that shows what will be needed in the future, so tell us ALL about it.

They still don't know numbers of people stranded in NO, but you expect it to happen in 4 hours.

Ok, I figure at least 36, but lets go with yours.....

Yeah, 24 hours. 8 hours for notice to get rested personnel, 8-16 for preparation, especially when moving from one region to the other, not across the street, ya know.
We're at 52 if we cut my estimate by a third, which is unrealistic, but I'll do it for you.

Nope, takes about 3-5 travelling at convoy speeds. Add in time to assemble convoy, and we're at 8-10.
Total, 60-62hours.

Yeah, and when the road is blocked, or doesn't exist...... lets add on 4 hours for that.
Total, 64-66 hours.
My total comes up 6 hours short of 72 hours... three days. And thats assuming all goes perfectly. But even so, the USCG and many military helos were already on scene pulling people from rooftops, which means they were NOT dropping food and water. And all you can do is complain.

LOL, you have no clue. You are pushing a political agenda, nothing more, nothing less.
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Gosh, Max, you really know how to hurt a guy.

Well, let me spell it out for you. SUNDAY, impact with NO was 100% for sure. 175 mph winds. No crystal ball needed. Just someone to get their head out of their ass long enough to realize that some serious shit was about to happen.
I won't comment on your timeline ... I don't agree. I could have driven to NO 6 times with supplies in the time it took you to "assess" the situation.

Okay, Max, if that helps you sleep. Speaking of sleep, I'm going to go catch a few Z's. Tomorrow, I'm actually doing something about it.
Americans deserve the best our government and military can offer in times of crises. Republican president or Democrat ... I expect the same. I guess you could call that an "agenda".
Craig C.
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Yup, like say, NO municipal government and the LA state government. Hell, I'm watching Senator Lott run down the time line as to how they are actually ahead of the curve in how things went compared to other storms.

Yeah, with one vehicle, loaded by who? To what effect on a mass of over 20,000 people? Takes time to put together an co-ordinated effort, not just hours.

Good for you. We're sending all our local Red Cross people to help you. And local ambulance crews. And our money. And likely more in the days to follow. See, we remember this shit, we went through Agnes, and got flooded out for days ourselves. We didn't have a big city to take care of us, and our capital was flooded out as well. We had graveyards popping out coffins, mine runoff poisoning our drinking water, and no way to get to any safe major city within 100 miles. We learned from it, so now when a storm comes through, we deal with it. We don't blame the president, or the governor. We have local people who know their jobs, and they DO those jobs.

They got the best. The USCG was there within hours. NG branches were there within a day. Why not tell one of those guys that help wasn't there in time, and you have an idea how to make it faster next time. I'm sure you'll have a very interested audience.
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LOL, yea, they set a BS timeline like you did and then they can claim how they are ahead of it.

You are correct and much of this planning should have occured BEFORE the storm. Any planning after it should only be dealing with the unexpected.

And
follow.
mine
We
Yea, probably because your governor knows now to begin planning and gathering supplies when the storm is expected, not after it hits so your local people have what they need to do their jobs. I don't care how much your local people know, it they don't have what they need, they can do nothing.

Complete BULLSHIT!!!!

With NOTHING.

And should have been there within hours.

a
Simple answer, plan ahead and be prepared next time. Hurricanes are not surprise events like an earthquake or a tornado.
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Well, the way they say, the flooding in NO was unexpected. Obviously that is a major disruption to plans, if in fact they were following any.

Actually it was a local senator, by the name of Dan Flood (no, I'm not joking) that had a major part in getting state and fed funding to build a floodwall. Our Governor has had very little to do with our plans, and the one we have now probably would rather talk football than govern. I will say this in Rendells favor, he has said he will find state funding to erect a floodwall at the next town up if the feds won't fund it.

20 Helos with rescue equipment was "nothing"?

You do realize the NG is made up from people who LIVE in the affected area? Beyond that, it'll take a day to get other state NG activated.

But according to another thread, you claim the path is unpredictable..... Whatever....
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unexpected.
is
LOL, completely not true. They were expecting major flooding during the storm and when it didn't happen right away, they thought that they got off lucky, until the levees failed that it.

much
say
Ok, fine. Either way, you are now prepared to some degree for if it happens again and I doubt that the people in charge will wait until after the next major stor in your area to even begin the planning.

For the level of damage and number of people in trouble, yea, I would say NOTHING.

area?
They should have been activated prior to the storm since they knew that it was comming.

Yes, it is but a storm that powerful is going to cause significant damage to wherever it strikes and we should have been somewhat ready for it and we simply dropped the ball, big time.
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Your claims back up the fact that their plan failed. If they expected exactly what happened, and it took an extra day for it to happen, then th Mayor of NO is at fault, not the NG or the Feds.

The plan is in palace and has been executed correctly several times.

I just heard a report that 40% of the USCG helos were on scene. Thats 80 aircraft. A bit more than nothing.

According to the NG spokesman on MSNBC, they were.

No. See, what you fail to understand is, a disaster is a disaster because its a huge bad event. Until it happens, dealing with it perfectly is impossible. Too bad they aren't all exactly alike, then people like you could have the perfection you desire.
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One may note that the full brunt of the hurricane missed NO and hit Mississippi instead......a little observation clearly shows largely intact buildings albeit quite wet. The day following the storm everyone including the media and NO local politicians were soundly congratulating themselves for their wonderful pre storm preparations including the soon to be ill fated packed stadium. There was as well lots of bragging about pre storm preparation between the locals and the FEDs. And a massive sigh of relief that the storm had dropped from CAT5 to Cat4 upon hitting landfall and had veered away from heavily populated NO.
Then as the levy fell the initial hopeful expectation was to fix it and stop the flow.....as night fall came on the second day it became apparent that such a outcome was nearly impossible. By the third day the city was largely flooded.
Of greater note with a nearly 100 mile wide swath of massive destruction through Mississippi manpower, resources and rescue was rightly focused where the storm actually hit.......
One might even surmise that NO with a reasonably slow rising(48hr) flood and a city supposedly already "emptied" would be largely a long term repair/ cleanup and not a budding emergency. One might also surmise that the locals(common sense) would have propositioned reasonable food, water, fuel and portable restrooms before filling the stadium and convention center......
Timelines and realities on the ground may wreck a good rant but nonetheless they exist. A large scale emergency mobilization costs literally billions of dollars and disrupts thousand of lives (reserves and volunteers) its just not something that can be done because something might happen.....at any given time something "might happen" virtually anywhere, preparation before the fact is by necessity general and non specific....i.e. at this point Mississippi and NO have entirely different needs including rescue, manpower and equipment requirements. Realistically in this case a "flood specific response" on a national level begins 2-3 days after the initial hurricane.....Not to mention logistics of distance add considerable transport time. Requirements for initial local information about transportation assets remaining or available (airports, roads and rail) is needed as well.

No argument there......however an expectation based on reality is not a bad thing. Rod
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Well said, Rod.... but <sigh>.... sadly reality is not the strong suit of some in the group.... much easier to rant about something of which you know little....
Mike

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snipped-for-privacy@metronet.com wrote:

Yep, easy to blame Bush. Especially easy for the NO Mayor to give the TV vampires nice curse-laden sound bites.
But the truth is at this URL: http://junkyardblog.net/archives/week_2005_08_28.html#004749
Incompetence begins at home.
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LOL, most of this should have happened BEFORE MONDAY. As you said in the fuel price thread, NOWA had a pretty good idea where and how strong it was going to be when is made land fall. The fact that they had the evacuation showed that they knew what was possible so they could have made many accurate assumptions as to what was going to be needed prior to the storm hitting. the real time line should have been:
Day 1, Saturday - Assessment and assumption of probable needs. Day 2, Sunday - Logistical planning and gathering of supplies and personnel based on above. Day 3, Monday - Reassess situation and needs. Begin initial deployment Day 4, Tuesday - Full deployment to region with what is needed or available based on prior assessment while gathering any additional supplies and personnel that may also be needed. Begin initial operations. Day 5, Wednesday - Operation fully commences!

LOL, you are already 3 days late.

Yes it was because many of your steps should have been done BEFORE the storm even hit. By Tuesday, they should have been ready to roll with something.
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No, I said NOAA had a clue. I don't know who NOWA is. As to accurate predictions, your flawed assumption fails to take into account their flawed assumptions about their levees, and the biggest variable, number of people trapped in a disaster that was believed to have been avoided.

Based on what? Storm size?

Gathered where? In the city?

During the storm?

Wow, FIVE days instead of the three I claimed. Brilliantly proving that three days is GREAT response time. You are aware that USCG and military helos were on scene by Tuesday, right?

You are aware that USCG and military helos were on scene by Tuesday, right?
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Ummm... Tom? Oh great on-scene commander (the one who could to a better job)? The Astrodome is in Houston. You might have wanted to locate your personnel and supplies in the Superdome, which is within the N.O. city limits.
Yeah, I know... details....

Yeah - screw the people stranded on their rooftops with burning buildings around them... they should have been dropping supplies instead ("Oh, shit! Hey - look out for that falling... <SPLAT>." "Whoops")
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Yea, I got the name wrong, get over it but even the Astrodome (less than 3 hours by helo) would be better than where they had them which was knowwhere at all. If all you can do is bash me on a wrong name, then your arguments are getting weak indeed.

Monday
shit!
Helicopters can perform precision drops if they actually have something to drop, you do know that, right???? As for the people stranded on their roofs, they can be rescued by small boats and the helicopters between supply drops. I guess that you would rather screw the masses that took the trouble and made the effort to help themselves to get to where they were told to go without any food or water supplied to them to help the idiots that decided to stick it out in their homes against the mandatory evacuation orders. Yea, that makes much more sense, asshole.
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answer
Fuck you Mike. He should have returned to the White House for appearance sake alone. If he could do everything from his Texas home, there would be no need for the White House at all now would there. He was elected by the people to lead this country and when it is about to be ravaged by this type of storm, he should be back at his post. Despite modern communications, it is not now or ever will be as good as being were he is needed talking face to face with the people that he needs to talk to and giving the apperance to the country that he cares and things will get done, not that he will get there when he has the chance after his vactaion.
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wrote:

"fuck you mike"? yeah, i sure don't understand why no one around here likes you.
as for the response to the katrina, it was terrible. we thought that we had our planning down but this really shows how much work we have to do. why you blame bush for that is beyond me though. the local, state and federal response isn't lead by bush, but rather by americans who are supposed to have their shit together. i suspect this will be a wake up call and that there will be some changes. look at beekeeps video. is it bush's fault that two cops where in that walmart looting? no, bush isn't at fault here you idiot. it was other peoples jobs to get this done, not bush. now, what i expect bush to do is to kick a whole of ass, fire some people and get some people in there that can get the job done.
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The appearance of WHAT?

How perceptive of you. Except for the need to have an offical residence and headquarters for our president, technology has made one helluva difference since the White House was rebuilt in 1814 or so.

Back at what post? You do realize that he has all information brought to him personally. He doesn't just sit and watch special TV's.

Given that you understand his physical location is one of appearances only, maybe its time for you to shut the hell up and realize he cannot be everywhere at once. Maybe its time you realized that no matter what party he belongs to, a president cannot be more than a man, who needs a vacation, time at home, and LOTS of people and services to bring info to him no matter where he is.
EVEN I was making fun of his overflight of the affected area, but the FACT is, he was on the ground ASAP given the security risks.
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appearance
The apperance of giving a damn.

and
Yes it has but if you really think that it is 100% as effective as him being there, then you really are a fool.

him
How do you know that? The answer is that you don't and this is where the appearance thing comes in. For all I or you know, he could have been out fishing while this stuff was going on. I am not saying that he was, but there is that appearance thing again.

face
apperance
only,
he
matter
BULLSHIT!!!!! While he is president, his home IS THE WHITE HOUSE. He is the leader of the most powerful country in the world and much is expected of him. If he cannot handle it, he should resign. Funny how you expect more of Clinton though.

He did not need to be at the disaster site and I have no problem with the amount of time he took to get THERE. He should have been at the White House prior to the storm landfall for appearance sake alone and he didn't do it. BTW, how did this get to be me attacking Bush anyway. I don't blame Bush for the complete fuckup that this effort has become. Oh, I see, you know as well that this was a disaster and are trying to change the subject rather than agree that this could have and should have been done MUCH better than it was.
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wrote:

you are surprisingly successful at climbing to new levels of ridiculousness. you amaze me. just when i think that you can't get any more goofy, you go and leap ahead. no one, and i mean no one (well.........maybe except for you) gives a shit where the president holds a news conference from. not in the least. if you think that they do then you haven't been paying any attention at all. now, they do care about what the president says and does. then again, he wasn't running the recovery efforts. try to grasp that tom. the system is what failed. the system is what needs to get fixed. you want to act like people here are bush worshipers and are biased against what you say becuase of that. this is just another of your many psychological wierdnesses. many people here are not bush fans. they are just more honest than you and have a sense of perspective (which would do you a world of good). that is good. people like you will never fix any problems becuase you have so many biases and your mind is so distorted that you can't analyze a situation to figure out what the problem is or was. just basic logic, you can't fix a problem if you can't accurately determine what the problem was.
just saying tom, that's all.

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So diverting AF1 and dropping it 30,000 feet closer to the earth wasn't enough? Of course, that was part of his delay in getting back to D.C. Never mind that he's made two trips to the affected area since then. Or that his security would have been in question prior to then.
How about the rants he has directed at the oil companies for being totally unable to cope with the demand placed on them by the U.S., mainly because they keep exporting our resources? Looked to me like he was pissed, but hey, I don't know the man, he could have been joking around.

And you really have no clue what sort of technology surrounds the highest office in the land. If AF1 is good enough to command our forces in a nuclear attack, its good enough to command the country during a disaster. To claim otherwise is simply talking out your ass.

And you really have no clue what sort of technology surrounds the highest office in the land. If AF1 is good enough to command our forces in a nuclear attack, its good enough to command the country during a disaster. To claim otherwise is simply talking out your ass.

And you really have no clue what sort of technology surrounds the highest office in the land. If AF1 is good enough to command our forces in a nuclear attack, its good enough to command the country during a disaster. To claim otherwise is simply talking out your ass.

But you want him to talk to the people face to face for appearances sake, and because its the best way to know what they need, according to you. Flip frigging flop.

And you really have no clue what sort of technology surrounds the highest office in the land. If AF1 is good enough to command our forces in a nuclear attack, its good enough to command the country during a disaster. To claim otherwise is simply talking out your ass.
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