US Auto makers may become extinct, caused by Unions

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Let me get this straight you claim my post "go argue with somebody else" was a indication that I was superior to you and was trying to restrict who you reply to. Now after more warped but convienent thinking you also found that "go argue with somebody else" was "demeaning and insulting"
All I have to say is WOW!!
Although Budd it is you usual MO, gotta have a excuse, any excuse.

That was polite, should I have said "please go argue with somebody else" ? No matter, you needed the excuse. See Budd it fits your pattern.

How do you think I knew that? It is your pattern You were pissed off in the other thread so ya waited to jump in here. I still say ya look pretty foolish but you should be use to that. Try to have some dignity will ya.

LOL ? You have been tying to justify your BS for some time. The pattern is showing. True to form.

You knew exactly what it was but you were so hot to jump in. You are grasping at anything to validate your BS.

Don't ya see it yet Budd you are reaching sooo hard to justify yor remarks it would be laughable were it not so pathetic.

Sure I do the railroad industry is a closed shop. Actually you don't have to join, you pay a reduced fee of some sort. But you do recieve all the benifits and stuff just like you paid dues as a member.

Okay, so you could have worked there but didn't want to join a union. You made a choice and didn't work there. So you live by your choice and went to work elsewhere. Great, good for you. You made your choice, apparantly it was a poor one, but YOU made it. Accept the fact that YOU made the choice and stop blameing a union. But no, your Budd and it is NEVER YOUR FAULT. Some things never change.

The fact is you could have worked there but decided you didn't want to. Stop complaining about it, you made the choice.

Ooops I missed this. In support my wallet? Oh, does this come from the other thread where you advocated union workers take a pay cut? Your damn right I'll bitch about it. Further, I said that if pay cuts were to be asked everybody should give up a percentage, even you.
Oh, I won't killfile you. Others have dealt with you and have sorta backed away given your age and alleged medical condition. I'm older than you and have medical issues too. So, I figure that we are on a even field. You know I won't back away. Gee Budd what was that movie Grouchy Old Men....

I didn't insult your current health. I said that you are continually mentioning it while others just move on. Now you use it as a excuse for you behavior. Be advised that I am going to use all my medical issues and my age as a excuse when dealing with you. Hell, fair is fair, right?

You were asked years ago. Now they have become your mantra and excuse. My comments were about you not your medical condition.

Good, you should get out more.

Never claimed to, just voiced my opinion as you do.

Ya you do. 'Cause you know that it was bullshit.

Not reading minds, just a prediction based on your past history.

Of course not.

Good, and you've read mine in response.

Yup.
Here it is again. Blame somebody! Hell blame me for all your problems real and percieved. But whatever you do NEVER accept any responsibility for your own actions.

Here it is again. Now your medical condition is a excuse. Stop trying to elicit sympathy and take responsibility for what you say and do. I know it must be hard but try.

Constanly.
Why not answer the question??

Those are your words Budd not mine. But I guess to buttress you position you can make believe they are mine. Is that how you see yourself ? Is that why you are so angry and bitter? If so please seek some help, it will do you a world of good.

Stuff it?? How crass of you Budd.

Hell Budd you gotta blame somebody, it is your pattern. Blame me, it matters not.

The word you left out is "Yet". No tantrum yet, it is on it's way though.

You already have it in your head that this is all my fault. That is fine. Where it goes from here depends on if, and what you write. As always if ya want to play, be prepared. Not a threat or anything just the way it is. I've become a grouchy old man. It is the meds and my age. I can screw around for a bit, but snow is on it's way and I'll have to get going. Don't want you to think I'm rude and ignoring you, just the way it is.
Remember "go argue with somebody else"
Roy
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Roy wrote:

Yep.
No, it's truth. You can't handle truth.

If that was polite, you're no Miss Manners.

If I took your opinion of me to the local coffee shop, it would stil cost a $1.75 for a cup of joe. and your opinion means less than that to me.

but a decision. And like most liberals, you won't change it no matter what. It's called bigotry, btw.

And what are you doing? What are you whining about when it comes to unions to support your BS?

Go ahead and laugh, if you want. You must or you wouldn't mention it.

That's not what I was told in 72 for a job as labor for the N.Y.Central. Now, if you want to believe it fine, if not, fine.

No, Roy, I DID NOT get the choice to work or not. It was cut and dried: union membership=job, no union membership=no job. Got it now?

So, you twist or deny the truth so you can accuse me of blaiming others.

Wrong, Roy, dead wrong.

Well, it looks like you're getting your wish.

What ever. It's your choice.

Or is it you choose to beat me over the head with them just because I mention them?

Take your own advice.

Oh, I am allowed to disagree? (quick, call the paramedics I'm going into arrest!)

Whatever.
Whatever.
I mention a medical fact and you claim it's an excuse? Don't look know but your bias is showing.

If I told you lies, you'd cuss me . . I tell facts, you cuss me. I can't win.

Because it's none of your business and besides, it was posted back when it happened.

No, Roy, that's how you've been treating me with your comments on giving up my pittiance from the government THAT DOESN'T EVEN COVER MY MEDICATIONS, let alone pay any medical bills.

What's the matter? Can't take what you dish out?

And your liberal opinion matters not to me except at election time.

No, still no tantrum <VBG>

No, it depends on you.

Whatever.
Budd
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Good night!
Roy
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Oh, btw, Roy, just one final comment about my health issues.
You keep mentioning my supposed "whining" abut my health. Remember that not a single person in the group had said a thing in that regard until someone, in a fit of hatred, made the claim. All you've done is support that hatred and that bias.
--
Budd Cochran

Romans 3:23, Romans 6:23,
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Okay. I ended it last night, ya had your last. I snipped about the entire thread and said "Good night". But no, that isn't good enough for you. You want to keep on going? Pull those straps tight!
Budd I don't remember anybody mentioning your health in any way other than you. Regardless, I am sick of hearing about it. Useing health issues as a excuse for behavior as you have in this thread is or to elict sympathy is repugnet imo. There is no hatred involved just a opinon.
I gotta get back in the truck Budd, there is a blizzard going on here. I'll be back to play with ya later tonight or sometime Monday if you want to continue. If you decide we continue we might as well use the whole thread, there was a bunch I probably should have replied to but didn't. Up to you.
Roy
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No, just had one last comment.

Then you need to see a doctor about a memory problem, it's either selective or failing.
Otoh, I know and admit my memory is getting worse.

Whatever.
--
Budd Cochran

Romans 3:23, Romans 6:23,
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Budd Cochran wrote:

American Workers Will Live Like Peasants Again because of union busting by their own government.
JAM
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--
If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving



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TBone wrote:

For you it's better that a union busts a company and they pack up and move elsewhere. Good plan.
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really, fwiw, the world can only live well when there is balance. as far as unions, they give balance to workers rights. as far as management, they give balance to workers wants. they really are a ying and yang to one another. neither proves too successful when the other is too strong.
unions are not dinosaurs. they are not gone. they are just being squeezed by a global economic trend. they will adjust. unions will rise in other nations, in other countries..........as management gets too strong and forgets the relationship that it must maintain with the people that do the labor.
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theguy wrote:

They can in some situations. In others unions have gotten way to big and powerfull and destroyed otherwise good companies. They have hurt industries by subsidizing union contractors such that they can bid below cost to shove out anyone else. Thats just plain wrong and is not benificial to society as a whole.
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Oh yea, it was always the unions, never greedy corporate execs that made bad decisions.

I don't even think that is legal but since you seem to think that it happens sp often, lets see some examples and don't give me your typical "do the research" crap. You made the claim, now lets see some examples. Funny how you don't seem to complain when big companies like Wallmart and M$ sell below cost or give things away for the very same purpose.

But it happens on both sides. How come you never seem to see that?
--
If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving



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TBone wrote:

Too funny TBone!! I say they can in some situations and you retort by saying ALWAYS the unions. When is it ever the greedy unions huh? Oh ya, you said 1% of the time. LOL sure.

It is legal TBone. Unions write checks to member corporations so they can outbid the non-union contractors. It's very legal and its happened to my families own businesses. Backfired though. The union couldn't keep writing checks forever in order to win all jobs. Your love affair with unions is a direct result of you having zero experience or knowledge from a corporate perspective of the damage unions do.
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wrote in message

bad
Really, name one. All I hear from you is the big bad unions, never that managemnet dropped the ball.

happens
Either you have the biggest family in the world, or you are full of shit. Every time I ask you to back something up, you come up with this family crap yet never actually give a name. What is the name of the business and what union attacked them. Since this should all be public record, I'm not asking for anything private.
--
If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving



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TBone wrote:

ROFL!! You try to tell me it's illegal for unions to subsidize individual contractors so they can outbid non-union companies. You haven't a clue at all to come up with that statement. It's just your personal belief with zilch to support it and yet again you try to tell me you must be right if I don't name a company other than my families. Sorry TBone, you're wrong. It is legal and is done on a routine basis. Prove your statement true. Show me some law that says unions can't bankroll companies to outbid non-union companies. Back your claim up.
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Miles, I'd expect you to look at both sides of a issue. Please read up on the demise of Eastern Airlines with a open mind. I'll see if I can find a link tonight.
Roy
Roy
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There is a ton of stuff Miles, also on Frank Lorenzo, Easterns owner, either yahoo or google. Just trying to point out that horrible stuff happens on both side of the street.
Roy

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i second what roy said. but keep in mind that it isn't just the headlines where this is an important issue. in my opinion it is behind the headlines where this union/management issue takes on its most important facet. it is in the lives of individual people that i am the most concerned about. as i get older, i have spent some time thinking about values and what i would like to be remembered for. about what is really important in life. while making money and having toys is important and i like money and toys, it isn't the most important thing and it isn't what i want to be remembered for. fairness with my relationships toward people is much more important. how we interact in the business world with people and how we treat them is really bigger than anything else. that is a legacy that you will leave and the real struggle in america is on the individual level. i believe in capitalism and wish you well in all your pursuits, but all things come into conflict and only when you know your priorities can you act in concert with them. when the right to make big sums of money comes at the expense of the workers rights to have a secure and fair work place, the latter wins in my book. look, i have been on both sides of the fence. management rights at this point in time are at a high in the post war economy. i see it every day. there are alot of managers in the private and public sector that see employees only as a means to an end, their end. without unions, there is very little job or discipline protection. period. the law does not currently support the worker. now the worker can just turn the other cheek and take it or they can do something to even the playing field. the unions are that avenue. yes, the unions go too far sometimes but so does management.
the point that you just can not grasp is that you and the workers have to have a relationship for your business to work. if the workers chose to do that through a union, that it their right. pure and simple. in that case, if you want to have a good business that is ethical, fair to workers and successful in business, you have to have a relationship with the union. period. you have to try to understand what the union represents and why it is of importance. that means that you have to do two action things: you have to listen and you have to try to empathize. i mean listen as in listening to the message, not just listening as you do here so you can build an argument against what is said, but actually listen. empathy is that second part.
this thread just kills me. you want to rail about unions because of thier exccesses, but that is stupid. it just opens you up to the same philosophy. we can rail (probably to greater degree) about mgt excesses. you trivialize what the unions represents. as long as you do that you will never ever really be able to dig beyond the headlines and get to some creative solutions.

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Let's face it, there have been some union's or locals, that have been horrible. What I don't understand is why the members have not voted them off the property or de certified them.
I also think in the past 30 years the unions that did run amok have been curtailed quite a bit.
Roy

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i think you are right. i am certainly not trying to give the impression that unions are blameless. just the opposite, my point is the unions are here and management is here and the whole blame game is pointless. it centers on the past and we need to live in the future. unions have a legitimate purpose and so does management.
anyway, i agree with what you have posted here about this.
on another subject, how is the snow? you are probably tired of it, but out here we are getting a big blast of arctic air and are pissed because the moisture does not seem to be developing to give us snow. i will hope for a little snow to play in this weekend.
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