Hybrid Lovers Read This and Lament

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wrote:


I'm not talking about getting rid of steel just getting rid of all the useless expensive gadgets. Forget the AC, PS, PB, electric seats and windows. Leave out the radio-CD player and garbage like the trunk light and the notorious windshield washer fluid guage.
Cars could be so much simpler than they are and they would cost much less and with fewer problems. But GM Ford, toyota and honda work together as a monopoly to give us this overpriced junk.
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say this in rec.autos.driving on Tue, 22 Nov 2005 03:49:23 GMT:

and emergency brakes and tires with thread....
--
"My tars have been bald for two years.
Every month i glue some sandpaper to them and
  Click to see the full signature.
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Laura Bush murdered her boy friend wrote:

But then they wouldn't be able to pay the salaries of those socialist UAW members, would they?
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For more money you can now get a European car giving more MPG and more trouble free miles.
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all the useless crap. Detroit could easily build a 2500 pound family car that gives 40 mpg and costs $8,000 brand new and gives 250,000 trouble-free miles on nothing but routine maintenance. <<
Detroit's not going to be building anything pretty soon, but Honda or Toyota might build something like that. I wish I could say VW too, but they may be going the way of Detroit.
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After a few years a majority of cars will be either fuel cell cars or hybrids

That is basically what you do with fuel cell cars

It is highly likely that Detroit will miss out on this development at least initially
If they would want to do anything like this it would mean either hybrid or a fuel cell or both
With fuel cells you have a lot less moving parts
What you get is more space in the car
You get a lighter car
You get a car that lasts longer
You get a car with a lot less maintenance
Fuel cells cars and hybrids are no longer just a dream they are a real alternative
Problem is there is not very much production capacity yet
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Daniel J. Stern wrote:

Yep, this is the dirty little secret of hybrids. They are going to be worthless after they hit the end of warranty period because the cost to replace the battery pack will exceed the value of the vehicle.
Have people learning nothing from cell phones and laptop computers where failure to take a charge rechargeable batteries are often the death sentence?
John
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Hold on there! I just bought a replacement battery for my Dell Inspiron - total cost $72. It was a little over two years old (a bit soon for failure IMHO). But the cost was only about 10-15% of the laptop's resale value. Certainly no reason to trash it.
Point being that IF the cost of a replacement battery pack for a hybrid was 10-15% of the vehicle's value at the time it was needed, the resale would not be so adversely affected. I admit, though, that the price is unlikely to drop to that level.
Doug
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wrote:

Ever hear of proofreading??
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laura bush - VEHICULAR HOMICIDE wrote:

You must have way too much time on your hands to be spending it nitpicking on usenet over spelling and grammar. Now go back to that high school and make the kids there miserable like so many teachers do.
John
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rec.autos.driving on Tue, 22 Nov 2005 17:31:09 GMT:

Judy spends its free time (when its not showing its silliness in r.a.d.) by sitting out in the back porch of its trailer wearing a tinfoil hat and watching for black helicopters with UN logos piloted by grey aliens...
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John Horner wrote:

Uh, Judy hasn't been to high school yet.
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Stern wrote:

And to think, the point where conventional cars could be entirely recycled had just been reached.
(I was watching ask-this-old-house a couple weeks ago and they had a landscaping railroad tie type thing that was made out out of the 'fluff', the last 6% or so of material from automobilies that nobody had a use for)
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Hold on there Daniel!
The battery industry is well able to come up with aftermarket replacement batteries for these cars. They aren't doing so now because there's no demand for them - because the warranties are all still in effect.
The dollar values of these battery packs are funny money, they are accounting fictions. Since the automakers pays for the warranty replacement of the battery, the automakers can price them however they want.
Consider for a moment this scenario. Honda could have figured out even before commencing manufacture that the battery pack will fail at least 1 time under warranty. We also know that Honda is probably losing $2,000 on every new hybrid they manufacture.
So Honda decided to engage in a bit of creative accounting. In order to minimize the loss on each car that they manufacture, they understate the actual cost of the battey pack by $2000. Thus while the real dollar amount they are losing on every new car is $4,000, because the battery pack is underestimated, the loss looks less than it is really.
Now, they have to get the money for these understated batteries somewhere. That's where the overinflated $8000 warranty battery comes in. Because it's a warranty, Honda can argue next year to it's stockholders that they didn't know warranty costs on the hybrids would be so high, thus their profits are down. In the meantime the $8000 warranty batteries are actually subsidizing the cost of the new batteries.
You have to assume that Honda's and Toyota's stockholders will tolerate some loss on hybrids, as a skunkworks market. But they won't tolerate it for very long, and they won't tolerate it if it's pretty massive. If the loss gets to high the investors will force those companies to jettison hybrid production. So if Honda's managers want to continue building and losing money on hybrids, they are going to have to do some creative accounting tricks to hide some of the losses on these cars. Pushing the loss out of the manufacturing cost bucket and into the warranty claims bucket is one of these tricks.

Why are you thinking that these cars batteries are going to be replaced by NiMH? My guess is the aftermarket battery industry will come out with a lead acid gel cell conventional technology retrofit battery for these cars, that will cost a quarter of the NiMH. Obviously the fuel mileage will suffer but not a lot, and the battery industry is under no obligation to manufacture a part that will retain the existing mileage. All that would probably need to be done is a reprogrammed battery computer to be installed that will properly maintain charge on a lead acid pack.
Ted
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Will they also design a trailer to carry all the LA batteries need to produce enough voltage? ;)
mike
"Ted Mittelstaedt" >

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Mike Hunter wrote:

Mike Hunter wrote: > Will they also design a trailer to carry all the LA batteries need to > produce enough voltage? ;)
Put two 9 volt transistor radio batteries in series and you have enough *voltage* - I can carry that in my pocket. I think you mean enough power - voltage is only half the equation. :)
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
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Hydrides use higher voltage to produce the proper amperage to do the work. To do so with LA batteries you would need a truck load. All common flashlight batteries produce 1 1/2 volts but the larger sizes produce more amps. Ask Mr. Ohms ;)
mike

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On Wed, 23 Nov 2005, Mike Hunter wrote:

I think Mr. Ohms did not give you a complete reply when you asked him.
Different battery technologies have different voltages per CELL. A normal flashlight battery is a single cell that produces 1.5v. NiCd battery cells produce a little under 1.5v. Lead acid battery cells produce 2v per cell -- a normal 12v battery has 6 cells in series.
There are 2 other factors that are key to battery usage: 1. Internal resistance. This really determines how large a current the battery can deliver. 2. Capacity: how long can the battery deliver the necessary current?
Now, to replace a battery with one of a different type, one would have to match the voltage and the internal resistance (otherwise it would not produce the necessary power) of the original. To build a small 48v LA battery is not hard -- it just requires 24 cells, each of which could be quite small. The overall size need not be bigger than a standard 12v battery.
The next question becomes the capacity -- or really, the energy storage density. How much energy can you store in a given weight or size?
Finally, as was mentioned earlier, charging would likely be a problem when replacing one type of battery with another: a charging profile that works well for one battery technology may kill another quite quickly.
So, it's not just about what Mr. Ohm says, but also what Mr. Capacity says and Mr. charging profile.
So, the question should be: Will they also design a trailer to carry all the LA batteries need to store enough energy?
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Whoever wrote: > > > On Wed, 23 Nov 2005, Mike Hunter wrote: > >> Hydrides use higher voltage to produce the proper amperage to do the >> work. >> To do so with LA batteries you would need a truck load. All common >> flashlight batteries produce 1 1/2 volts but the larger sizes produce >> more >> amps. Ask Mr. Ohms ;) > > > I think Mr. Ohms did not give you a complete reply when you asked him. > > Different battery technologies have different voltages per CELL. A > normal flashlight battery is a single cell that produces 1.5v. NiCd > battery cells produce a little under 1.5v. Lead acid battery cells > produce 2v per cell -- a normal 12v battery has 6 cells in series. > > There are 2 other factors that are key to battery usage: > 1. Internal resistance. This really determines how large a current the > battery can deliver. > 2. Capacity: how long can the battery deliver the necessary current? > > Now, to replace a battery with one of a different type, one would have > to match the voltage and the internal resistance (otherwise it would not > produce the necessary power) of the original. To build a small 48v LA > battery is not hard -- it just requires 24 cells, each of which could be > quite small. The overall size need not be bigger than a standard 12v > battery. > > The next question becomes the capacity -- or really, the energy storage > density. How much energy can you store in a given weight or size? > > Finally, as was mentioned earlier, charging would likely be a problem > when replacing one type of battery with another: a charging profile that > works well for one battery technology may kill another quite quickly. > > So, it's not just about what Mr. Ohm says, but also what Mr. Capacity > says and Mr. charging profile. > > So, the question should be: Will they also design a trailer to carry all > the LA batteries need to store enough energy? >
Exactly. I didn't realize they used a nominal 48V. So to modify what I said in my previous, you could get the 48 volts still with a pocketful (6) of 9-volt transistor radio batteries. Like you said - you have to have the energy/power. That's why I said that voltage is only half the equation.
Since we're being picky, as with all units named after a person, the convention is to capitalize the 'V' when *abbreviating* "volts", and to *not* capitalize it when writing it out. For example, you would write "48 volt battery", or "48V battery". :)
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
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On Wed, 23 Nov 2005, Bill Putney wrote:

I am not claiming that they use 48V. This may be correct, or not. I have read that there are some plans to move all vehicle systems to 48V.

Thanks for the correction. I should have remembered that. I have even been to Volta's birthplace.
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