Historical questions on Firestone tire recall

It was very complicated, agonizing, and the policies changed monthly. From memory: it went through several stages over an extended period of time. First, they denied everything and did nothing. As the death count grew, they were sued by individuals under civil law. Ford dithered. A Federal pro-forma investigation was launched. Firestone then recalled some defective tires but blamed the victims for the problem. Venezuela sued for damages. Firestone blamed Ford for the rollovers. Sears dropped the Firestone line of tires. Ford Explorer sales started to fall. Ford blamed Firestone. The Feds found some defective tires, and the recall list was expanded. More lawsuits and complaints. Ford owners started replacing the Wilderness AT tires not recalled (like the 16" versions). Firestone said the problems were connected to only one tire plant. (Evidence showed that to be wrong.) People were very upset and the lawsuits increased. Ford said they would replace the Wilderness tires not recalled as a "customer satisfaction" matter. Tires continued to throw treads, vehicles rolled over, and people died. Firestone hung tough. Ford reimbursed vehicle owners who had already paid for Wilderness AT replacements. Ford redesigned the Explorer, but sales continued to fall. Lots of negative publicity. Firestone's parent, Bridgestone, backs Firestone's legal position. More lawsuits, but most are settled in payoffs and secrecy agreements.

That's the short answer. It leaves a lot out and is only approximate. Apologists for Firestone will tell a very different story (the customers were the problem).

Caveat

Thanks Caveat,

Let me explain why I am asking. I recently picked up a '94 4X4 Ranger with

53,000 KM or about 30,000 miles that has the original Firestone AT's on it. Visually they look to have more than a half inch of tread depth left. Shortly after learning that the tires on my "new" truck may have subject to a recall I wrote to both Ford and Bridgestone/Firestone providing the vehicle info (model and VIN) and tire info (model, size and DOT numbers).

Bridgestone/Firestone replied within a week saying that if I would bring the vehicle to one of their dealers; the information I provided would be verified and the tires would be replaced. It has been over 3 weeks and I have yet to hear from Ford. Maybe that is because I also asked Ford about the other known recalls (emergency brake and fuel line and ...)

In the two weeks since hearing back Bridgestone/Firestone and waiting for Ford to respond, I did some research on tires. It seems that Bridgestone has produced some tires that have garnished favourable reviews. These tires would be an upgrade to the models that replaced the AT's. Ideally, I would prefer to pay the difference and have upgraded tires, but I would like to have some idea of what policy was, and what I was facing before I walked into the tire dealer for replacements.

-- Roy DotSeaEh is .ca

"Caveat" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com... | On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 01:17:32 -0500, "Roy Brown" | wrote: | | >When Ford and Firestone recalled the AT tires a few years back. | >What was the replacement policy? | >Were the tires just replaced and balanced at no charge? | >Were they pro rated by tread depth / mileage? | >Did they offer upgrades for a price differential? | >

| >IOW how did the recall work? | | It was very complicated, agonizing, and the policies changed monthly. | From memory: it went through several stages over an extended period of | time. First, they denied everything and did nothing. As the death | count grew, they were sued by individuals under civil law. Ford | dithered. A Federal pro-forma investigation was launched. Firestone | then recalled some defective tires but blamed the victims for the | problem. Venezuela sued for damages. Firestone blamed Ford for the | rollovers. Sears dropped the Firestone line of tires. Ford Explorer | sales started to fall. Ford blamed Firestone. The Feds found some | defective tires, and the recall list was expanded. More lawsuits and | complaints. Ford owners started replacing the Wilderness AT tires not | recalled (like the 16" versions). Firestone said the problems were | connected to only one tire plant. (Evidence showed that to be wrong.) | People were very upset and the lawsuits increased. Ford said they | would replace the Wilderness tires not recalled as a "customer | satisfaction" matter. Tires continued to throw treads, vehicles rolled | over, and people died. Firestone hung tough. Ford reimbursed vehicle | owners who had already paid for Wilderness AT replacements. Ford | redesigned the Explorer, but sales continued to fall. Lots of negative | publicity. Firestone's parent, Bridgestone, backs Firestone's legal | position. More lawsuits, but most are settled in payoffs and secrecy | agreements. | | That's the short answer. It leaves a lot out and is only approximate. | Apologists for Firestone will tell a very different story (the | customers were the problem). | | | Caveat | |

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 00:53:39 -0500, "Roy Brown" wrote: [...]

The Ford recall on the ATs that were not covered by Firestone's recall expired a long time ago because it was a temporary customer satisfaction issue. The federally mandated, and the voluntary, Firestone recalls did not have an expiration date, AFAIK. They WANT to get those tires off the road to head off further liability lawsuits. They will probably just give you the new tires in a straight exchange deal (no tread wear adjustment).

The Bridgestone Duelers were rated pretty well, but I had a set on a Nissan 4X4, and a small pine twig went right through the 2-ply sidewall while driving slowly on a forest road two weeks after they were mounted. They do not warranty their truck tires, so I was screwed. And those tires don't come cheap.

I bought Michelin ATX L/Ts for the 2000 Ranger during the Firestone mess in place of the Wilderness AT tires. They are the best tires I've ever owned, and have double the max load rating of the Firestones.

Personally, I wouldn't but anything made by Bridgestone/Firestone because of their past irresponsible handling of their defective tires. In your case, however, you probably won't have that choice.

Good luck,

Caveat

If the tires are still in use, what makes you think they were faulty? Probably the owner of the truck through the hysteria realized that as long as he did not drive the truck like a Ferrarri sports car at ambient temperatures above 100 degrees F, and left some air in the tires, there is nothing wrong with them?

It sounds like you are trying to fiddle the system for a free set of tires that you do not appear to need. Personally, I hope that you have to settle for a pro-rated arrnagement. I'm getting a little weary of having to finance schemes like this by me having to pay more for your free tires.

HR.

In article ,

"Roy Brown" wrote:

This statement doesn't make any sense. If the tires are the same size and type they will have the same load rating. If you switched "P" series tires for "LT." tires, you also need to adjust your tire pressures. To achieve the same load rating with LT. tires you must increase the tire pressures significantly. For instance,

Here are the load rating at various pressures for a couple of tires that could be installed on a Ranger:

Pressure P235/75R15105S LT235/75R16

20 1543 23 1653 26 1753 29 1852 32 1940 35 2028 1530 40 1680 45 1825 50 1985 (max for load range C) 55 2100 60 2235 65 2335 (max for load range D) 70 2490 75 2610 80 2755 (max for load range E)

The Ford recommended pressures for the P235/75R15105S tires installed on a Ranger are 30 psi front, 35 psi rear. This implies a maximum load per front tire of 1911 lb and a maximum load per rear tire of 2028 lb (although in most cases the loads are derated by 10% to 20% for P series tires in LT. applications). To achieve these same loads with LT. tires you will need to inflate the front tires to around 48 psi and the rear tires to around 52 lbs. You also need load range D tires to achieve the same load rating as the P series tires. I am sure if you do a lot of off road driving, the LT. tires will be much tougher. However, if you do a lot of highway driving, the ride and handling will be greatly affected. And must likely the fuel economy will suffer, although the difference may not be detectable. You might be able to lower these pressure somewhat, since I used the full passenger car rating when I did the calcualtion, but you will still need to inflate the LT tires to semthing like 45 front / 50 rear to acheive the same loads as the P series tires are rated to carry in light truck applications.

However, even load range E LT. tires, don't have "double the max load rating of the Firestones." They do have over double the maximum safe inflation pressure.

Ed

If you are worried about the recalls, take the truck to a Ford dealer. They can run the VIN and let you know if the work has already been done and if it hasn't been done, then the dealer will do the work. Safety recalls do not have an expiration date. Ford will not replace your tires. That was a Customer Satifaction Program that had an expiration date. Ford was never legally responsible for replacing the Firestone tires. The tire warranty and recalls were, and still are, Firestone's responsibility. Ford just stepped up to the plate to try to stop all the negative publicity about the defective Firestone tires from destrying the sales of Explorers.

For 1994 Ranger there were 6 Field Service Actions (Recalls):

01B77 - Customer Satisfaction Program - Ford Firestone Wilderness AT Program: Replacement of Firestone Wilderness AT tires (Published: 10/2001) - This program expired in March of 2002. 94S91 - Safety Recall - Certain 1992-1994 Bronco, F-150-350 Series Trucks and 1993-1994 Explorer/Ranger Vehicles Equipped with Manual Transmissions - Installation of a Parking Brake Lock-in Wedge (Published: 12/1999) This only affects 1993 and 1994 Rangers built before 05/01/94. 98L20 - Special Field Action - 1993 through 1995 California Passenger Cars and Light Trucks Equipped with 3.0/3.2L Engines and 1997 through 1999 California E-250/350 Econolines and F-Series Equipped with 6.8L Engines - Revised Warranty Information (Published: 12/1998) - THis is just a revised warranty statement for vehicles sold in California that reflect the California rules 96S35 - Safety Recall - Certain 1991-1994 Explorer and Ranger Vehicles - Brake Replacement (Published: 03/1996) This only affects Certain 1991-1994 model year Explorer and Ranger vehicles built from March 1, 1991 through November 30, 1993 and originally sold or currently registered in the following ten Southern California counties: Riverside, San Bernadino, Orange, Ventura, Santa Barbara, San Luis Obispo, San Diego, Imperial, Kern and Los Angeles. 95S29 - Safety Recall - Certain 1993 and 1994 Rangers Equipped with the 2.3L Engine - Replacement of the Air Intake Duct and Valve Assembly (Published: 01/1996) This only affects certain 1993 and 1994 model year Rangers equipped with the 2.3L engine, and currently operated in the following states: Alaska, Montana, North Dakota, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan (Upper Peninsula only), New York, Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire

- replacement of the air intake duct and valve assembly.

94S85 - Safety Recall - Certain 1994 Model Year Ranger Trucks - Inspection/Replacement of Front Fuel Line Assembly (Published: 06/1994) This recall only affects certain 1994 Model Year Ranger Trucks produced from April 28, 1994 through May 18, 1994 at Louisville Assembly Plant; from April 29, 1994 through May 18, 1994 at Edison Plant; from April 25, 1994 through May 13, 1994 at Twin Cities Plant. These vehicles are equipped with 3.0L, or 4.0L engines.

Regards,

Ed White

Free tires, no charge.

The Michelins are LT 245/75 R16s rated at a max load of 3042 pounds, load range E. The factory-installed Firestone ATs that they replaced were the same size, but max load rated at about 1600 pounds.

The Michelins were noticeably heavier and more robust, and have logged about 15,000 miles with less than half of the tread worn down. I did rebalance them once in this period, however. They do run at a higher tire pressure (because I use them with the truck normally loaded) on the advice of the tire people at Costco where I bought them, and who also maintain them for me.

Other than reporting the specs, I don't know what else to tell you, Ed. Except that the Michelins are a vastly superior tire, at least in my experience, and in all the comparative reviews I have read on them.

Caveat

I agree that the Michelins are better tires. But you are comparing P tires and LT tires. Also you must be comapring different sizes. A P245/75R16 should have a maximum load rating of 2271 lb at 35 psi, not

1600 lb. The lowest maximum load rating of any tire supplied by Ford on a 2000 Ranger is 1742 lb (for a P215/75R15200S tire).

Here is the comparitive loads and pressures for 245/75 R16s tires:

Pressure P245/75R15 LT245/75R16

20 1731 23 1852 26 1962 29 2072 32 2172 35 2271 1700 40 1865 45 2030 50 2205 (max for load range C) 55 2235 60 2480 65 2632 (max for load range D) 70 2765 75 2900 80 3042 (max for load range E)

Regards,

Ed White

Thanks for the information, Ed. I don't have the old tires anymore to confirm the tire load rating, but I think it was C. The 2000 Ford brochure I have in my hand shows the standard tire that comes on the

2000 Ranger XLT4X4 Off-road as being P245/75x16SL. However, I think the tires that actually came on the truck were LTs, but that was three years ago so I can't be certain. In any case, however, the replacement tires were the same size as the originals, as I have stated (and I personally compared them). No speedometer differences, either.

Using your own figures above, the load rating for a load range C LT245/75R16 at he factory recommended pressure of 32 pounds would be about 1600 pounds. The Firestone tires that came on the truck carried a max load rating of about 1600 pounds (might have been 1575, but I forget exactly). This was not a maximum pressure rating. The new Michelins carried a max load rating of 3042 pounds moulded into the side of the tire (again, not a max pressure number), so I stand by my original statement that the max load rating of the Michelins was (appx.) double that of the factory installed Firestone Wilderness ATs.

It was the Costco tire shop manager who showed me a Firestone Wilderness AT they had just removed, alongside a Michelin they were about to put on. He pointed out the difference in load ratings stamped into the sides of both tires and showed me the difference in weight, design features, and construction quality. I was impressed with those differences. There was no reason to doubt him, but every reason to doubt what the Ford/Firestone people had been telling us for months.

At the time, the local newspapers here in Phoenix were carrying headlines every week showing delaminated Firestone tires, rolled-over vehicles, and dead and injured occupants. These included 16" tires like I had on my truck, included tires that had just been properly inflated to Ford factory specs, on nearly new vehicles. The problem here was no doubt exacerbated by the fact that daily temperatures here are over 100 degrees for 5 months of the year. Hard on tires.

You may recall, as I do, similar events back in the 1970s with delaminating Firestone 500s, so I was not going to keep driving on those factory tires despite the fact that all the Ford and Firestone

*experts* were assuring us that there was nothing wrong with them (even though millions were later recalled in safety recalls as defective). My old tires were showing signs of failure at 5,000 miles.

But I don't particularly want to refight that old battle here, Ed. The fact is that the Michelins are better, and safer, tires. We use them about 70% on-road, and 30 % off-road. They are marvelous in both applications and cruise at 75 mph freeway speeds with no handling or ride comfort problems that I can discern. I appreciate your theoretical info on the subject, but I have to rely in my real-world experiences in trucks (going back more than 50 years) to make these decisions. My posts here were simply to help the OP with his problem.

Regards,

Caveat

the recall replacement program ended over 2 years ago for the firestone wilderness tire

Caveat,

I tried finding the status of the tire recall up here in Canada, on the Transport Canada Web site that lists all the recalls that affect vehicles in Canada. The tire recall was mentioned in various spots, but each and every link I tried gave the same result, "page not found". This got me wondering, so I searched the net. A lot of links referring to the recall including those on the Firestone and Fords sites gave similar results. I started thinking that some court, somewhere had ordered a publication ban.That is what prompted me to write both Ford and Firestone with the details, asking them both a simple question. That was, did they feel the tires on my vehicle were safe enough to drive my truck from Toronto ON to Bullhead City AZ and back, towing a camper next year.

My understanding was that the recalls had ended, so I was planning on replacing the tires if either Ford or Firestone had said they were unsafe. With 4-6 months lead time, I could keep my eyes open for a sale. My first choice would have been Michelin, the second Goodyear. Once I received the reply from Firestone I checked out their product line and the reviews. The Duelers caught my attention.

That is what prompted my initial post. I was trying to determine my costs before going to the Firestone dealer. If the tires were considered unsafe for my intended use next summer, they were going to get changed. I was trying to figure out how much it was going to cost me to change them with the various brands. Then make a decision based on that.

Thanks,

-- Roy DotSeaEh is .ca

HR,

What initially concerned me was that the original owner mentioned that the tires on the truck were recalled a few years back and that if I was planning on doing much highway driving I might want to replace them. The tires looked OK to me and since I did not own any when the problem was making the news, I did not pay much attention. Once I bought the truck, and did my research on the tires I became a little more concerned. Especially when both the Ford and Firestone web sites made numerous references to various pages that could no longer be found. That is what prompted me to write them both and ask: "did they feel the tires on my vehicle were safe enough to drive my truck from Toronto ON to Bullhead City AZ and back, towing a camper next year." As far as I knew the recalls had expired.

I guess the original owner did not care much, since he did not drive much, I figure about 3300 miles a year. 100 degree F. days do happen up here in Canada, but they are somewhat rare. The truck had not been driven for almost a year, one tire was almost flat and another was noticeably low. What I was able to learn was that heat, highway speeds, low tire pressure, tire age and loads all play a factor in the tire failure. Knowing that, how comfortable would you be making the trek from Toronto to Arizona?

Sorry, I am not trying to fiddle with the system, I am trying to keep my vehicle safe for the benefit of myself, my family and others on the road. If either Firestone or Ford indicated the tires safety was questionable, they would be replaced no matter who paid. That is also why I will be making sure that the known problems of the brakes, fuel line and throttle freezing in the open position are corrected if indicated. I've got most the service records for the truck and none of these issues indicate being checked.

I recall my last major road trip, back in the 70's, driving on a brand new highway through the back woods of New Brunswick on one of those rare 100 plus degree days. My '68 Chevelle started losing power and cutting out. When I pulled over and popped the hood, I seen a stream of gas flowing out the vent hole of the fuel pump just missing the glowing hot headers by a fraction of an inch. Needless to say, being stranded on an unfamiliar desolate highway on a hot Sunday afternoon really is not much fun.

If you were to consider Caveat's comment: "AFAIK. They WANT to get those tires off the road to head off further liability lawsuits." Then compare that to the costs of replacement tires. Which do you think you would have to pay more to finance? A few hundred for some tires or a millions for the legal fallout?

Personally, I find it troublesome having to share the road with other peoples unfit vehicles, or worse yet, unfit drivers. Believe it or not, we all pay for them through our insurance premiums. I am sorry if You feel You are personally paying for my safety or benefit.

-- Roy DotSeaEh is .ca

Naw, it's just old news, Roy. Both Firestone and Ford tried to limit of the cascade of bad publicity, but the opportunistic free press jumped on this juicy subject and ran with it. Good thing, or else lots more people would have died and been maimed by the millions of defective tires. Profits almost always trump lives when greedy executives think they can get away with it liability-free, IMO.

That particular question isn't one they can answer by mail. Someone would have to inspect each tire to make such a judgment, and you can bet that your friendly Firestone dealer would recommend buying new tires if they thought that answer would result in a fat sale.

The first thing to do is determine if your tires are on the recall list and if Firestone will replace them for free. Since Firestone told you to go to one of their dealers to determine that, that's exactly what I would do. If they say they are not recalled, thank them and leave.

Being in Canada, you may find that the recall list there will be very different than that in the U.S. The same size and type tires that were shipped on my truck had already been recalled in several other countries, but not in the U.S in the summer of 2000.

Ford was scrambling and substituting tires on new vehicles when my truck was built during the last week of production for the 2000 model. They later had to shut down production at three truck plants to send the tires they had on hand out to dealers to replace the earlier defective one. And it later turned out that those replacements were also defective. It was just one disaster after another.

In you shoes, I certainly would NOT drive to Arizona and back, towing a trailer with 10-year-old tires of questionable original quality. New truck tires are surely expensive, so that must be balanced in you judgment against the cost of a tire failure. Only you can decide that. Check the open market sales, as you have already proposed, if Firestone stiffs you when you go in for the recall check.

Hope I was of some help.

Caveat

You might see 100F in Canada but it ain't the same as 100F in AZ. :) The dry air here doesn't cool the ground or pavement like moist air will and that was part of their problem.

Ok, the tires are shot anyway. :/

They may not look messed up or act messed up right away but their ability to go the distance is has been diminsished a -great- deal.

In my experience, tires that set around with weight on them and allowed to get low can't go far enough to wear out the tread, they'll fail first. Not necesarily throw the tread but get lumpy and bumpy and not worth using any farther.

Cowboys/farmers/rednecks will of course use bad tires like those, all the way up, you know they don't want to waste anything. BTDT. :)

But then you don't want to do it that way do you? ;) I don't anymore either. :)

Alvin in AZ

I don't understand why anyone would put a 10-ply tire on a Ranger! That's a whole lot of over-kill and a great waste of tire and money!! It is definitely more tire than the truck needs. The standard load tires for this vehicle are still rated for more than the truck can safely carry.

typically better sidewalls on an LT tire. Nothing worse than cutting a sidewall on a $150.00 tire.

l8r

I have no idea what you are talking about. You answered and quoted my post, but nowhere in that did I claim to have bought 10-ply tires. The Michelin LTX L/Ts have 2 polyester plies and 3 steel plies. I would agree that 10 ply ties are overkill for a Ranger.

Caveat

I'm sorry, I thought you stated that you put on Load Range "E" tires.