Some General Motors vehicles outrank Toyota's

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http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID 06604100374

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silver, along with the harbour award for productivity. Yet our cars are not selling well enough to keep us working. Probably a combination of perception and boring design.
Jane
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The url for one of the sidebars in the article details a lot of the problem:
http://www.freep.com/assets/static/pdf/gmtoyota04102006.pdf

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I wish it were not that way, Jane. An Englishman once told me 'It is not what one IS, but what one is PERCEIVED to be, that makes the difference'. There is a lot of truth in that, even though English cars are not perceived to be very good.
Every GM I have ever owned - and there are a good many in my past - had some seriously irritating fault or shortcoming. From the cracking Iron Duke blocks, to the weak Metric transmission, to the lousy CS alternators, the failing engine plenums and gaskets, and many more.
I know you can't do anything about this.
But it is the reason that I, and many others who have been stung by GM over the years, are a bitter about it.
Now, back to the Englishman's statement...Perception may get you in the door (or kicked out), but to stay on top, you have to produce a product that people want.
GM's models are not really boring and dull. They are, IMHO, plagued by expensive failures and a GM bad attitude toward making a quality product and standing behind it.
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At least you said in your opinion. Too many poster like to state their personal opinions as fact. Obviously not all of GM vehicles have been problematic or GM would not still be selling more than anybody else, even more than they did back in the fifties when they had 50% of the market. The truth is more people still want GMs vehicles more than any others, that is why they are still number one no matter how much some others may want the brand they buy to be number one.
mike hunt

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Mike,
I would like to hear your take on:
http://www.freep.com/assets/static/pdf/gmtoyota04102006.pdf
Elmer

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What that survey tells us is that fully 98% of the vehicles sold in the US are trouble free, if listed as a percentage rather than presented as a 'list' On any list there will be one at the top, one at the bottom and the balance listed in-between. Surely you don't believe that the Scion vehicles are junk just because they fall below average on a list?
mike hunt
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Mike, you are doing it again. Cut it out! It's nonsense.
- nopcbs

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Well, whether you believe it or not, I try to be as objective as I can about things like this.
I am in the market for a new car, and haven't come to a conclusion yet about what it will be.
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Because of my experience in all aspect of the business I am often asked what to buy. My advice is to drive all those that meet your needs and buy the one with the 'total drive home price' that suits your budget. All manufactures are building good reliable vehicles today, the only real difference is style and price, IMO ;)
mile hunt

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Mike Hunter wrote:

If that is true, GM is in worse shape than we thought, because it makes no sense to buy GM when Hyundais are so much cheaper.
Come to think of it, the Tiburon is actually better looking than most GM products.
nate
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I have been hearing really glowing reports about the newer Hyundais. There was a claim in the latest Popular Science that the Azera is a fine car...a 'budget Lexus'.
I have an appointment to drive one tomorrow.
They don't have the prestige appeal that a Lexus or other might have, but we are interested in good transportation.
With a 7 year, 100,000 mile warranty, one might come out okay.
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Every manufacture is building good dependable vehicles today, one need not pay a premium price to drive one home.
mike hunt

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Uh, Consumer Reports says that there are significant differences still. (And all they are doing is passing on what the car owners told them.)
I guess it does depend where you draw the threshold of "good dependable", though. I would like my threshold to be at 0 problems in 5 years, but that is unreasonable...for now.
Oh wait, you claim that for 98% of owners that can be the "met" threshold. I guess that with every car I have ever owned (Lexus to GMC...especially the GMC), I was in the unfortunate 2%. Bummer.
(And, yeah, I am just trying to get you to stop posting that silly statement.)
wrote in message

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Just because one chances of getting one of the good ones is far grater than getting one of the bad ones does not mean you will get one of the good ones. I had a problem with one of my Lexus. My brother in law who owners it now has had problems with it as well. The other three, as far as I know have been trouble free. If I had assumed ALL Lexus LSs had the same problem I should not have bought the next two, according to your logic. ;)
mike hunt

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Where did you get this 98% of car owners have no problems over 5 years of ownership? It is just so outside the realm of reality.
You look at the CR data and your claim and you are left with the conclusion that those poor people in the unlucky 2% are basically living at their dealerships. (OK, an exaggeration.) I don't buy it based on my own experience. Even our 92 LS400, one of the most reliable vehicles ever built, would fall in the 2% real unlucky category by your claim. Actually, none of my associates would fall in your 98% with no problems category over a broad range of car models.
It makes zero sense, what you write.

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My guess is you believe what you do because you do not understand statistical averages. You are entitled to your own opinion however. That does not change the fact the survey after survey supports what I have stated, and that is the all manufactures vehicles far into the 2% for the rate of failure in the first five years. ;)
mike hunt

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Cite one such survey. Just one. They DO NOT exist. The very idea flies in the face of common experience. I do understand how statistics work. I am an analytical chemist by profession, have University education in statistics and use statistics on a daily basis. But more important than any of that, I have owned a half-dozen new cars in my life, keep them an average of ten years and I KNOW 1st hand what you claim is low-level baloney.
Mike you make good sense off and on, but this 2% in five years thing is just devastating to your credibility. Stop it for your own sake.

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J D Powers latest report of five year owners, for one.. I you deal is statistics then you should know that any manufacture who produced a product with a failure rate of much above 2%, their business would fail.
mike hunt

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Please supply the link that says some J.D. Power survey showed that only 1 in 50 new car owners of any brand had a failure in their first 5 years of ownership. That means, 1 in 250 owners of that model/brand had a failure, on average, in any of the first five years of ownership.
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