Why GM Shouldn't Fail (and why hybrids are crap)

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I just returned from a 700 mile trip up and across NY State. It included mountainous terrain and an average speed of 70+ mph (with the A/C on). I got 28 mpg all told. What I find amazing is that this is
a 3700 lb plus car with 3 fairly heavy people. The car was an 07 Malibu Maxx SS with the 3.9L engine. On the other hand, making this same trip with a Honda Civic Hybrid, I only got about 8 mpg more. I had to take hills into more consideration as the car was underpowered. To go with that, I had to leave the A/C off, go slower because the ultra super low rolling resistance tires tended to skid when braking, and I got a sore behind in the bargain from being shoved into a tin can. I think we have and do make wonderful cars.
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Hybrid is good for city driving during rush hours. But on the road I do not think that you could save a lot. Every 4 to 5 years you have to buy new set of batteries ($5K).
boba vankufer

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hybrid cars are the most economical choices. A recent study by Intellichoice showed all hybrids would save their owners money in the long run. Most of those savings come from their high fuel economy numbers, but the federal tax credits, high resale value, and equivalent maintenance and repair bills all add up to the plus side for hybrid cars.
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hybrid cars are the most economical choices. A recent study by Intellichoice showed all hybrids would save their owners money in the long run. Most of those savings come from their high fuel economy numbers, but the federal tax credits, high resale value, and equivalent maintenance and repair bills all add up to the plus side for hybrid cars.
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and did this study actually product any facts, figures and real world measurements, or was it like most of it's type that only make speculative statements that reflect the preference of the "reporting" organization? Taking just the difference in mileage between a hybrid and a typical GM vehicle today, there is no payback period for the hybrid, so it is quite unlikely that the above statement can be factually true. Makes for nice wish-list reading, but unlikely to be true.
--

-Mike-
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Mike Marlow wrote:

R Mach wrote:
Much of the hybrid result is due to the use of a base engine for the internal combustion component. Of course there will be benefit of the electric motor assisting the internal combustion engine during normal acceleration (and that's just one possible hybrid mode)...but the question is...how does the battery charge hold up in demanding driving ?
But the hybrid for its elegant advantage represents a large increase in complexity. For instance the Prius has a regenerative braking system, two electric motor/generators, a planetary gearset with computer controlled transaxle (to blend power from the internal combustion engine and from the electric motor and to charge batteries), a 38 module battery pack, and of course an internal combustion engine.
Compare to the complexity of turbocharging which requires the turbocharger, ports, stronger engine block, O-ring heads, stronger valvetrain, and stronger crankshaft. In other words most of the complexity of turbocharging is just that the engine must allow for the greater power. But turbochaging has had limited success because of it's complexity ! But turbocharging will allow for use of a smaller engine without reducing performance and there are fuel mileage gains.
Now here's the thing...a hybrid with a base engine being driven hard by a frustrated driver is not going to match its mileage ratings. While a turbocharged car that makes peak torque at low RPM and thus is easy to drive...is going to match its mileage ratings. So a hybrid is not going to succeed in commerical operations while turbocharging can succeed in commerical operations. And that's a testing ground for the consumer to consider...
And there's a September 2008 Popular Mechanics article where in their testing the Prius gets 44.7 city MPG and 44.8 highway MPG. Then the Jetta TDI gets 32 city MPG and 45.4 highway MPG. But consider performance and ease of driving of the Jetta TDI because it has 236 ft/lbs torque at about 2000 RPM. And compare the complexity of the two vehicles...
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Please note that I did not state the above. You might want to work on getting your attributes correct if you're going to post to usenet. As for the comments you posted, they simply made no sense.
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-Mike-
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But no it was Bjorn that wrote this:

Then Mike Marlow did write this:

And then R Mach wrote some more:
I did see your counterpoint to the item that I wanted to counterpoint...but then picked the wrong name out of the thread list.
But what I wrote made no sense ?
Well...what in particular made no sense ?
See...its unprofessional and even childish...to declare someone wrong without having any points. (In the child's game it's the first one who asserts that wins and there is nothing but the assertion.) But this is similar to "Orwellian" where the definition of the words used is denied or the logic of reaching a point is declared missing. Just deny the meaning of the words or just deny that a point was reached. In other words a technique of propaganda...or a technique of creating a preception that is adversarial.
But I said that a hybrid is a large increase in complexity...and that should be easy to understand. Then in comparison I said that a turbocharged engine is a small increase in complexity. Next I said that the turbocharged engine has had little past success simply because of the small increase in complexity. And so there is a viewpoint of looking at relative complexities...to predict viability.
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http://images.intellichoice.com/intellichoice_2008_hybrid_survey.pdf
IntelliChoice.coms survey of 2008 hybrids punctures some myths and adds some clarity to the economic picture for hybrids. Certainly, not all hybrids are created equal, but some, like the Toyota Prius, Ford Escape Hybrid and Mercury Mariner Hybrid, deliver higher quality and value when compared to non-hybrids. Only one hybrid, the luxury Lexus 600h L, significantly lags in low cost performance (but then again, thats not why Lexus designed it). Overall, the big economic question for car buyersdo hybrids deliver enough cost savings to justify their costsis answered in the affirmative. Hybrids, when viewed over the long term, deliver quality and cost savings equivalent to, and often better than, their non-hybrid counterparts. Which hybrid to buy depends on the vehicle in question and whos doing the buying. IntelliChoice.coms 2008 Hybrid Survey emphasizes the need for consumers to do their homework before hitting the lot.
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Bjorn wrote:
IntelliChoice.coms survey of 2008 hybrids punctures some myths and adds some clarity to the economic picture for hybrids. Certainly, not all hybrids are created equal, but some, like the Toyota Prius, Ford Escape Hybrid and Mercury Mariner Hybrid, deliver higher quality and value when compared to non-hybrids. Only one hybrid, the luxury Lexus 600h L, significantly lags in low cost performance (but then again, thats not why Lexus designed it). Overall, the big economic question for car buyersdo hybrids deliver enough cost savings to justify their costsis answered in the affirmative. Hybrids, when viewed over the long term, deliver quality and cost savings equivalent to, and often better than, their non-hybrid counterparts. Which hybrid to buy depends on the vehicle in question and whos doing the buying. IntelliChoice.coms 2008 Hybrid Survey emphasizes the need for consumers to do their homework before hitting the lot.
R Mach wrote:
A hybrid with a base engine and a couple of hundred extra pounds...is going to be difficult to drive in demanding or hectic city driving. Because of that it is going to miss its city fuel mileage rating by 5% to 10%. But Consumer Reports says that hybrids miss their fuel mileage ratings by up to 46% ! I'll assume that to miss the fuel mileage rating by a large amount requires a few hours of city driving and then the batteries going dead...
I think a hybrid is for a light vehicle user and for easy driving conditions...
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hybrid cars are the most economical choices. A recent study by Intellichoice showed all hybrids would save their owners money in the long run. Most of those savings come from their high fuel economy numbers, but the federal tax credits, high resale value, and equivalent maintenance and repair bills all add up to the plus side for hybrid cars.
-----------------------------------
You must be a car salesman or a hybrid mechanic.
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My son has a Honda Insight and a Honda Civic, both being hybrids. They are both now more than 5 years old and neither has needed to be re-batteried.. He gets up to 70 mpg with the Insight and approximatey 48-54 with the larger Civic.
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Correct me if I misunderstood HLS - but don't I recall that the 70mpg your son reported appeared more to be an instantaneous reading, and not a true realized measure?
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On a long trip (California to Oklahoma), he got these figures from the onboard monitor, you are correct. He claims that it closely matches actual fuel consumption figures, BUT I think we both would feel more comfortable with this is we saw fuel receipts and mileages.
The mileage is apparently quite good, in any case. One of the main reasons he bought the Insight was so that he could legally use the HOV lanes in the LA area, I believe. Dont know if that worked out as he had hoped.
The one point that we can probably settle on is that the battery replacements for both cars have not been as negative as some would predict.
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Yeah. I have to be suspect of his claims for that trip, simply because he stands somewhat alone in that claim. You just don't see claims like that coming from Insight owners all over the place.

I'm sure the mileage is quite good. Hell, if it were a mere 45 miles per gallon, that would qualify as quite good in my book.

Agree. The doom and gloom of the naysayers has yet to be proven.
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HLS,
You're suspect of every one. I saw lots of people complaining about their hybrids, if I'm not mistaken it's either GM or Ford turning an alternator into a DC motor then call it a hybrid. No wonder why you can't get much mileages. There are still lots of frictions in their vehicles.
Good English won't help you, good ideas will.
GasSaver.
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I see the same thing with our vehicles, I got 60 - 65mpg in city+ highway, and around 47mpg on a highway. Do you know why? Because in a city we don't have much hills, the roads are generally flat, and you can plan ahead to glide your car to come to a stop light.
GasSaver,
PS. It takes 10-yrs for your hybrid to pay off, ours pays off in 6 months. Www.extra150miles.com
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See now people? I told you, many hybrid customers are unhappy with their crappy hybrids.
For only 4% of a hybrid cost you can have a much better stronger and more efficient vehicle than that of yours. OFS' prices are right, quit complaining about my English and focus on what is practical for you and your family. See when you look for a well-speaking salesman, the result is quite bitter isn't it? Come to see me and speak French or Thai with me.
GasSaver
www.extra150miles.com
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wrote:

On a 650 mile super highway trip from DC to Detroit I got 32.5 miles per gallon on a 1990 Honda Accord LX 4dr with automatic transmission using a 2.2L motor. A skilled hypermiler probably could have gotten even better.
The report's I've heard is that in the hands of a skilled/Hypermiler driver a 2009 Honda Civic Hybrid can get over 50 mpg and a 2009 Toyota Prius can get over 75 mpg.

To gain the maximum advantage, a gas electric hybrids requires that the driver learn a new skill set - not everyone will be willing or capable of doing so.

Extra150miles.com is selling an on board diagonistic II (OBD II) instantaneous fuel efficiency display (iFED) called the Scan Gauge II which requires that your car be newer than 1997 if I recall correctly. This after market iFED cost about $150 to $180 dollars most of the time. CleanMpg.com review of "Scan Gauge II" indicates it can help the driver gain about a 20% increase in fuel Efficiency (FE). An iFED tells the driver how to save fuel by showing the car's instanteous fuel usage. Reports I have read on the internet suggest very light subcompacts like the 2009 Honda Fit benefit the most from iFEDs; subcompacts could increase their FE by about 40%. - Smaller, lighter, more aerodynamic, more fuel efficent vehicles would benefit more from a iFED than a larger, heavier, less aerodynamic, less fuel efficent vehicle like the Hummer H2.
Mileage improvenment gained from using any iFED (aka Scan Gauge II) is dependent on the driver learning how to slowly accelerate, coasting when going down hill, learning slow down going uphill, doing a technique called a Pulse and Glide (P&G) on flat terrain, keeping the car speed under 45mph, not stopping (e.g. adjusting the car's speed to match green lights at traffic lights), turning off the a/c, rolling up the windows, reducing the weigh/cargo of the car, and keeping the tires at their max rated inflation for lowest rolling resistant. There are also additional FE techniques available to PHEV and HEV which are not relevant to non PHEV/HEVs..
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On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 19:28:29 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

Most new cars (from GM anyway) have this function built in to the engine management computer and dashboard display.
No need to buy it again from the Scan Gauge folks or Extra150miles.com.
The weakness is that it is optionally displayed, not by default all the time. And the intervals are not sensible to help as much as possible in tuning your driving habits.
Also, in the owner's manual they do not explain very well if at all how to increase your mileage using the display.
I would hazard an estimate that if all manufacturers would display this information all the time by default, and make it slightly more useful and accurate by doing a running average over a short time period like approx. 3 to 5 seconds, and also educated drivers on how to use it, we would see a vast reduction in gas-guzzling driving habits like speeding, jack-rabbit starts, speeding up to a red light, trying to maintain speed up steep hills (like your stupid cruise control does), and other things that hit you right in the wallet.
By watching the display, but still travelling at a fair clip at the right times, I regularly get 30+ mpg (imp.) in my 2009 Chev Uplander Van.
If you only knew what it was costing you to drive like Jensen Button, we'd never have a gas shortage!
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Happy Trails wrote:

The US car companies are feeding you all full of bullshit. They could easily make a diesel hybrid that could get 80mpg but they WILL NOT!
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