Wheel stud lubrication - good or bad?

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Yesterday was a semi-nice day, so I decided to catch up on some
maintenance --oil and filter change (M1 the Puro 30001 sure works nice
on a 4.0!), TB cleaning, new Puro air filter, front-end lube, powerwash
engine and fenderwells, a quick run through the local car wash, the
usual.  Work is slow right now and I'm bored.

I later decided to go the extra mile and do a 4-wheel tire rotation and
change out those el-cheapo OEM lug nuts with a good set of heavily
chromed, forged steel lugs.  While I had one side up in the air doing
my thing, a neighbor commented on my practice of applying bearing
grease to the studs before torquing the nuts down to 90 ft/lbs.

He claims that it's a bad practice, and that the lugs will loosen over
time because of it.  I politely disagreed, saying that it is the
friction between the tapered nut face and the wheel that keeps
everything tight rather than friction from fastener threadfaces, and
that the only real way to get good, accurate, consistant torque is to
put a TINY BIT of lubricant on the threads before reassembly.

I know this all sounds petty, but I'm wondering if anyone here has
heard of mishaps that were the direct result of 'lug nut greasin'?  I
like knowing that the nuts will spin off easily many years later and
won't rust up, no matter how much muck I plow through.  And I make sure
everything is cool to the touch before everthing gets tightened down
--all pretty common sense stuff IMO.

Am I offbase here?  Admittedly, this is 'old-school' technology, but it
makes a lot of sense to me, much like 'priming' the engine after an oil
change before actually firing it up.  (Yeah, I do that too; I
disconnect the crank sensor, then reset the MIL when I'm done.)

-JD


Re: Wheel stud lubrication - good or bad?
Factory torque specs are for clean dry threads. Opinions on the web are
strongly in favor of both positions. That said, I have always used
antiseize so that they come off easier. The last thing I want to be
doing in the middle of the woods is standing on a breaker bar swearing
about a rusted up lug nut. I typically torque about 10 ft-lb less since
less of the torque is being lost as friction, but this is just a guess
on my part. YMMV

--
jeff



JD Adams wrote:
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Re: Wheel stud lubrication - good or bad?
JD Adams wrote:
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I grease all threads, usually with never sieze, but often with grease.

I was taught that it was a sound mechanical practice and have never seen
an issue due to the lube.  This is especially important with dissimilar
metals to prevent galling.

Re: Wheel stud lubrication - good or bad?
You are damaging the studs by over-torquing them.  The lugs could snap
because they have stress fractures or the nuts could come loose because
the lug is stretched so not stable any more.

The specs call for a dry torque of 90 to 115 not a wet torque.  The wet
torque settings are a lot lower.  I don't know them because I would
never use them.

We were told/taught 'never' to use any lube on the lug threads when I
worked in garages way back when.  Not just one garage either, but coast
to coast in Canada.  

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos:  Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

JD Adams wrote:
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Re: Wheel stud lubrication - good or bad?
another downside to grease is if it gets too hot, it will carbonize and
make them stick worse. Probably not an issue on off road vehicles but
performance cars can get their discs (and hubs) mighty hot under serious
braking.
clean and dry or maybe a little anti-seize...

Re: Wheel stud lubrication - good or bad?
Clay wrote:
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I agree.  I normally use anti-seize on everything else; it must have
been a brain-lazy sort of day.  I'll use AS next time around though.

-JD

Taking front grille off - TJ
Hi All,

I was about to put an extra transmission cooler on the TJ, in front of the
radiator, and realised that the cooler was too big to slide between the open
slots.  I did a bit of research on the internet and all I got was that I
would have to remove the radiator and discharge the a/c system to be able to
have access to the back of the grille.  Does anybody know of an easier way
to just remove the front of the grille (i.e. the grille cover).  I don't
want to remove the whole assembly (which is what requires removal of the
radiator and the a/c condenser).

Appreciate your ideas in advance.  I am also putting a temp gauge in between
to measure the transmission oil temp.

Thanks
TW
---------
'01 TJ Renegade 4.0L Auto D30/D44
265/75R16 BFG Muds, JKS Quick Discos, OME 2.5" Lift, 1" MML, 1" BL


Re: Taking front grille off - TJ
Is there a way to slide it in from below? Seems like you could remove the
flimsy splashguard under the rad pretty easily but I can't remember how much
clearance there is.

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Re: Taking front grille off - TJ
I have already had a look, but the bottom part of the grille frame makes is
not open.  Any other ideas?

Thanks
TW


Is there a way to slide it in from below? Seems like you could remove the
flimsy splashguard under the rad pretty easily but I can't remember how much
clearance there is.



Re: Taking front grille off - TJ
I think you might have to resign yourself to taking off the grille.

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Re: Taking front grille off - TJ

Looks like it that way.  As soon as the rain stops, I'll start taking the
radiator off and see if I can wiggle the cooler past the condensor without
discharging the a/c system.  I am just surprised that so few people actually
run extra cooler on Wranglers for the auto transmission.  There were tons of
write ups on other Jeeps.

Thanks for your time (and replying to my question).
TW


I think you might have to resign yourself to taking off the grille.

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Re: Wheel stud lubrication - good or bad?
Mike Romain wrote:

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Ahhh yes, the camps are indeed split on this one.

I believe that what the Mfg. is looking for isn't a specific torque
value, but rather the proper clamping force between wheel and rotor.  By
  lubing the stud and torquing to dry specs, I agree that it's possible
to stretch the studs too much.

Variances with prior galling, torque wrench quality and calibration,
rusting and thread surface imperfections and relative temperature make
exact tightening a crapshoot.  I went with the low-end spec to avoid the
stretch problem.  I may drop them all down to 75 just to be on the safe
side.  I've never seen automotive studs break off from overtorquing, but
I have defintely seen nuts spin themselves off from undertorquing, esp.
when they're not rechecked after a few minutes of driving after being
noodled with.

The anti-seize does sound like a better option than a dab of grease
though, and it would not be affected by rotor heat.


-JD

Re: Wheel stud lubrication - good or bad?
I live in the rust belt where everything rots long before it wears out
and always go dry with capped nuts.  With open nuts, I have used grease
on top after it is tightened down.

I have antiseize and use it everywhere else, but still not on wheel
nuts.

We just had to remove all my wheels a couple days ago and they came off
easily.  It's been a while since they were removed....

Anyhow, just be aware that antiseize is considered a 'wet' torque.

Mike

JD Adams wrote:
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Re: Wheel stud lubrication - good or bad?

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OK, so I would assume that using lock-tite would be a wet torque as well.
Are the (for example) motor-mount bolts I just torqued to 40 lbs too tight
because I used lock-tight?

How much of an adjustment would you need to make in the torque when using a
wet torque?

rufus

Re: Wheel stud lubrication - good or bad?
rufus t wrote:
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Someone posted a list here a while back.  When I rebuilt my CJ7 I went
about 30% less on the ones with antiseize and loctite on them.  I didn't
snap anything and nothing fell off.  I have pulled apart a lot of things
over the years and can sure 'feel' the difference when tightening up dry
or lubed threads.  I learned way back that I can snap off greased up
bolts very easily....

I had to remove my spindle this week and all the nuts came off easy as
well as the spindle popped out fairly easily.  A couple thumps and out
it came.  The 5 or 6 year old antiseize was still in evidence.

Engine mount bolts are 'special' it would seem.  I have heard of folks
that just plain can't tighten them right so they always end up with
snapped ones.

Snapped ones imply they were either loose so were subjected to vibration
impact or they were over tightened and subjected to stretching
fractures.  I suspect the second due to cussing about even using thread
seal on them....

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos:  Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

Re: Wheel stud lubrication - good or bad?
An old Polish farmer I did some work for recommended water on truck and
tractor lug nuts.  It acts as an assembly lubricant, and then evaporates
before the nuts can back off.  On some metals it leaves a protective
coating.

If you live long enough, you will hear most anything.

Earle

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Re: Wheel stud lubrication - good or bad?
Earle Horton wrote:
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Iron oxide (rust) *is* a protective coating

Re: Wheel stud lubrication - good or bad?
On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 21:34:28 GMT, the following appeared in
rec.autos.makers.jeep+willys, posted by Clay

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Black iron oxide (ferric, IIRC) is semi-protective. Red iron
oxide (ferrous) isn't; it's porous and the corrosion will
just keep going.
--

Bob C.

"Evidence confirming an observation is
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Re: Wheel stud lubrication - good or bad?
Bob Casanova wrote:
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Well... I just had to google it. Lots of interesting info:

"Rust is really Fe2O3, a reddish form of iron oxide. Iron has another
oxide, Fe3O4, which is sometimes called black oxide, black rust, or
hammerscale."

Micaceous Iron Oxide
Synonyms:  Micaceous hematite, Natural lamellar hematite, Specular iron
oxide, Micaceous iron oxide, Natural specular hematite ore
       Designations:
         Chemical Name: Micaceous iron oxide
         Chemical Formula: Crystalline *Fe203*
       Description:
         1) A naturally occurring lamellar form of ferrous oxide for use
in manufacturing paint coatings.
         2) When viewed under an optical microscope by transmitted
light, magnification X 200, the thin flake micaceous iron oxide
particles appear as sharply defined red translucent platelets.
         3) *Without doubt, it is the most important barrier pigment
used in coatings to protect structural  steelwork from corrosion. It has
a 100 year record of successful use on many types of steel structures
throughout the world.*
         4) It forms overlapping plates like mail armor. It reflects
ultaviolet light, allows water vapor to escape from the substrate, and
is chemically resistant.

Re: Wheel stud lubrication - good or bad?
On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 00:25:29 GMT, the following appeared in
rec.autos.makers.jeep+willys, posted by Clay

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You might want to consider that rust formed by corrosion of
bare steel or iron might have properties a *wee* bit
different from those of a protective coating containing
oxides.
--

Bob C.

"Evidence confirming an observation is
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