Newsgroup Etiquette

(a) What jursdiction do Microsoft have here? None. (b) IIRC RFC1855 makes a pasing reference to posting styles and merely makes a little suggestion rather than try and enforce any rules. (c) And of course RFC1855 was written decades ago and merely represents the opinions of those around at the time.

andyt

Reply to
Andy Turner
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No, I quite agree. I was replying to your assertion that the guidelines given on the web page were one person's opinions. I clearly proved that this is untrue!

However, the RFC system has a well proven history of updates by revision and superseding documents when changes are required - is RFC1855 superseded?

Reply to
Peter Bell

Has it been recently reviewed. Like on many roadways, if everybody is speeding, and there was not some engineering study reviewing the speed limit, the posted speed limit becomes unenforcable.

Current trends, set standards.

Reply to
Jules

I note you used the word "often". Well you're honest. For the record, I'm sorry I brought it up. Reference below.

Peace.

snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

Reply to
Jules

It was a global qualifier, not a personal one.

E.P.

Reply to
gcmschemist

You're talking apples and oranges. Traffic engineering is a science. Personal interaction is about as far from science as human endeavors get. While you may wish to impose some newfangled etiquette on all others, it won't work, because people are generally comfortable with the old etiquette.

In addition, since top-posting is done purposefully only by a few in comparison to those who don't know any better, it will always be in the small minority.

E.P.

Reply to
gcmschemist

As are many preferences. Does this make them wrong? What about vegetarianism, scientology, people who cycle to work, ethnic minorities even - are they all wrong because they are minorities? Are they being rude to us? Should we stamp them all out?

Only by those who are blinkered, self-centred and can only handle one style of writing (I mean, really - how hard is it?!) . Blimey, I'd hate to think you conduct yourself with this kind of bigoted outlook in real life.

And as I've said over and over now, once you change the degree, you corrupt the comparison. Not only that, but in your analogy you've switched to a situation where third parties never welcome and prefer that behaviour, whereas in top-posting - they do.

Why is it, do you think, that you have to make analogies in order for your complaints to appear to make some sense? If yours were a valid complaint within the subject, then it would make sense there - without the need for incorrect and bogus analogies.

Yes, but the point that is *painfully* eluding you is that third parties do not welcome this behaviour. It's been the problem with most of your analogies. If you want your analogy to make sense, then you'll have to find an example of behaviour which you would call rude yet is cheerfully accepted and preferred by some third parties (not the person exhibiting that behaviour). WRT a driving analogy, you'd have to find an example where in many cases, the person behind (ie, the third party), has no problem at all with the behaviour that you find to be rude and actually prefers the guy in front to be doing it.

Yeah, maybe some people have a habit of holding onto some beliefs when other people have moved on...

LOL! Y'see, this is where your blinkers truly reveal themselves. This isn't any kind of "false belief" - it's only a differing preference! WRT posting styles, there is no wrong and right, only preferences!

*Exactly*. We all accept other people's choices WRT cars and bikes even if it's not the choice we would make. Now then, why can't you accept other people's choices elsewhere?

Actually it served me *beautifully* and I'm hoping it helped you to see the light. I'm hoping it helped you to see that people make choices and have preferences all over the place and just because someone makes a different choice to you, doesn't make them rude (as you clearly appreciate WRT cars vs motorbikes).

"long before", indeed. And things have changed since then, that's all. Get with the programme. There are a great deal of reasons why the modern and more recent contributor to usenet would prefer top-posting. However, you ignore all this and expect things to still behave as they did in 1985.

Hmm... you don't seem to understand strawmen. I was *asking* you a question, not supposing your opinion or answer. This clearly was not an attempt at any strawman.

Ah, you again avoid answering the question a second time. Funny that... It's clear that you're avoiding acknowledging that you do not expect everyone else to adopt your preference of car and perhaps you've seen the contradiction that puts you in WRT your expectations on usenet.

Which of course doesn't mean that the minority are wrong - it's just a different preference.

Think about this. You will no doubt be in one minority group of some sort. Have a think about what that is - and how you would feel if that group was outlawed simply because it was a minority preference and that the majority decided they didn't like it and it was rude.

It'd be ridiculous wouldn't it...

Of course it is, but once again, that doesn't make the minority preference wrong, nor give you any right to try and stamp it out.

That'd be ridiculous wouldn't it...

I think most usenet clients leave the cursor at the top of the post when replying. Agent (the third most popular reader in this group), certainly does.

If you found yourself in a group where top-posting was the majority, would you make that same choice then?

A community gets along by not whining to each other about totally trivial matters such as the way they lay out their posts. A community gets along when people respect each others choices and preferences.

This Audi community was getting along quite nicely before the top-post whining started...

That's great, but as detailed above, your analogy is totally irrelevant because there isn't a group of drivers that would actually prefer you to adopt the bad driving behaviour.

Finding all of your posts? I've responded to *various* people here, it's just that you have the most obtuse attitude towards accepting other people's choices (and indeed, other people's opinion, as you explicitly admitted).

In any case, is it a problem for you that I'm replying to your posts? Would you like me to go away and stop pointing out the holes in your analogies and the self-centred and blinkered attitude you are displaying? I'll bet you would...

Right.. so where have I called you any names then? Please quote or provide reference.

They're the preferences of the majority of course. Which doesn't mean that the minority is wrong... *remember that* if nothing else.

Of course I can my friend.. but if you weren't top-post-whining in the first place, I wouldn't have a decision to make now would I...

andyt

Reply to
Andy Turner

Sure, but by changing the degree, you totally invalidate the comparison. What I'm saying to you is that top-posting is accepted, enjoyed and preferred by many people. And you try to compare this with something that isn't. It's not a valid comparison *because* you have changed the degree.

Ask yourself this. If top-posting was so bad, made such little sense and bottom-posting was the obvious way, then why do so many people top-post? You'd think they'd all be confused and want to change...no?

The *huge* difference is that rude mobile behaviour is only ever acceptable to the perpetrator and is not something which is welcomed by others around them. Top-posting on the other hand is not a problem for *loads* of people. Your comparison is again invalid.

This is the bit you must ask yourself. If it's *so* bad, why do so many people prefer it and have perfectly good conversations using it?

*Why* is that?

Why would people do this? Do you think that they're being rude on purpose - to annoy you or something?

Is it *just* *not* *possible* that they actually prefer the style and find it easier to use? Can you not appreciate that at all?

Try to appreciate that usenet is just a shared resource where people post messages that other people see. No-one has to pander to your preferences any more than you have to pander to theirs. If you have trouble interpreting their posts then by all means ignore or killfile them if you want to, but they have no obligation to change their preference just to pander to those who can only understand one style of post.

Hmm.. you're still showing that you don't understand that it's the

*quotes* that are presented in stack order - not the new text. With a lack of understanding like this, I'm not so sure as your opinions on it can really be taken seriously.

I'm not sure of the specifics of your analogy because I'm in the UK and I dunno what a turn lane is (and presumably the left/right is the other way around). However, I notice that you present yet another analogy - if your complaints WRT top-posting are valid, why do you have to resort to so many analogies just to make your point? Are you perhaps acknowledging that your complaints don't sound so valid when presented within the actual topic...

Interesting word you use - "History". Also interesting that you appreciate that this netiquette has been around "for quite some time". What you have to appreciate here is that times have changed. The internet technologies and the demographics and behaviour of users has changed dramatically in this time. Hence so have people's preferences. Essentially, you're just behind the times and whining about standards that seemed important in 1990. Do you still like your web pages to be static HTML and animated GIFs? Because that's the era you're harking back to. The RFC's probably contain various things that seem ludicrously out of date these days.

Learn some new tricks. There's more than one way to make a usenet post, and neither preference is wrong or invalid. Just another preference.

Someone laying out a post in a stack style really shouldn't be enough to confuse you, it really shouldn't...

andyt

Reply to
Andy Turner

Is this a situation where you'd like them to move out of the way so as you can drive above the speed limit? If so, then I don't see the problem and it's amusing to see which behaviour you think is wrong.

This happens all the time in the UK, there are only a few places where it is frowned upon. In those scenarios it is universally frowned upon and no-one does it. Hence it doesn't compare to top-posting, which is welcomed by a great many people.

And by changing that degree, you make it incomparable. Thousands upon thousands of people enjoy top-posting and prefer it. Who exactly are

*you* to say that they are wrong?

Let's say you happen across a thread where 4 or 5 people have had a conversation entirely by top-posting. The thread has ended, no-one got confused and people said what they wanted to say. Now then, what would be your problem with that? What exactly would these people have done wrong in your eyes? And, perhaps crucially, what relevance would your opinion on their thread have to them? Why would they care what you thought about their thread?

That's good. What about in other language groups?

Oh dear. This is no strawman (especially since I *asked* for your opinion instead of supposing it), just helping you to see your prejudices.

Of course, if you want to explain why that was a strawman, go right ahead.

andyt

Reply to
Andy Turner

Why sadly?

Er... didn't you start this by whining in the first place.... hmm...

LOL! This from a fella who gets upset about the way people lay their posts out....

andyt

Reply to
Andy Turner

OK, so perhaps it's a few people's opinions collated! The point still remains! I'd expect the page to be written by a single person anyway - even if he quotes sources that have the same opinion (which of course, he *would* do wouldn't he!).

The section that I thinking of hasn't changed in a long time AFAIK. I honestly don't think anyone would bother to revise it, regardless of the changes in usage we have seen over the years.

andyt

Reply to
Andy Turner

Hmm.. how rather ironic that someone got confused about who-said-what in an interleaved posted thread....

We have no comprehension problems whatsoever since we can both deal with more than one style of post without it baffling us. You on the other hand have so much difficulty comprehending it that you whine about it and try to stop people doing it.

Top-posting. It's not rocket science.

andyt

Reply to
Andy Turner

If you prefer to ride a bike or even walk does'nt disturb me, as long as you keep your self walking on the side walk or bike on the right side of the road (especially if me meet eatch other).

But I would not accept if you lived next door to me and choose to have great partys every night, with loud music and drunk yelling guests.

So accepting other peoples choices when it not disturb others is no problem. The problem comes when they try to turn everything upside down!

If you like to do a test, start a thread with somebody who bottom post every other time when you top post between, without cutting anything. Make 10 posts eatch and look at how stupid it looks, with all your posts at the first half of the last post.

Maybe you can see the "thread" in it, and you may even do so posting mails p2p if you like, but news is not for those only who start a new thread!

Reply to
Arne

You make the same mistake as "E.P.", in that your analogy doesn't apply because there isn't a group out there that welcome and actually prefer people to be having loud parties with drunk yelling guests next door.

Top posters don't turn everything upside down, they simply quote for reference and quote using a stack style.

I'm sure it'll look bizarre - but whose fault would it be? What you're effectively saying is that one should follow the posting trend set by the first respondent. Would you do that if the first respondent top-posted?

andyt

Reply to
Andy Turner

So what you mean, is that if some of your other neighbours should not mind your loud parties with drunk yelling guests (maybe even be one), that would be ok to have the partys even if all others would mind. Just because not everybody oppose to it and maybe even like it?

You should do as the custom is on the group you are posting on, bottom post where it's ask for and top post in groups where that's the custom to do so. You seam to do so for at least the thread you post in, like in this. So what's the problem to do it every time?

I don't think you mind bottom posting, you just want to argue and you reach that by objecting to anything that can cause an argue.

I'm off now. Bye! :)

Reply to
Arne

Not "not mind", but actually *prefer* that there be a loud party going on next door with drunken guests, than there not be - at any given point.

Now then, do you know of large groups of people like that?

This is why the analogy fails. You simply have to find something which large groups of people *prefer*, but which you find objectionable. And whenever you do that, you're going to hit the same brick wall - that just because *you* don't like it, doesn't make their preference or choice wrong and you have no right to try and insist that they adopt your choice instead.

Of course, like I said to our friend, one has to wonder why in order to make your point, you resort to analogies that distort the situation. If your complaint were so valid, then it would be valid by talking about top-posting, not having to talk about drunken parties.

Nope, because top-posters prefer top-posting *all of the time*. So the comparative group you are looking for are those that prefer there to be a loud party on next door than there not be, at any given time.

Ah, you seem to have avoided the question. Here it is again: Would you continue to top-post in a top-posted thread to avoid the confusion that your above text shows that you appreciate would occur if you were to not top-post?

And to answer what you *did* write, would you top-post in a group that is primarily top-posted? IME in the commercial workplace, multi-party email threads are almost always top posted, where the newest respondent puts their reply at the top of the stack. I trust you would follow suit there then?

I *do* do it every time since that is my preferred style. However, I appreciate that other people have different experiences and will choose different styles. It'd be ludicrous for me to think that everyone will make the same choices as me and I wouldn't expect them to, nor try and insist that they do.

*Of course* I don't mind bottom posting, I don't mind interleaved posting and I don't mind top posting. I mean, come on, they're only style preferences after all... It ain't rocket science!

Sorry, but no. I didn't even start this, the top post whining started this. I just figured I'd point out the rank hypocrisy, selfishness and blinkered outlook that top-post whiners generally have.

Oh and incidentally, look at how interleaved posting in this thread has left the attributions at the top of this post in a complete mess. It says "On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 23:52:48 +0200, Arne wrote", and yet what you *actually* wrote on that day doesn't appear until *30* lines lower down (perhaps off the screen for some people), after various things that I said, that you said previously, and that "E.P." wrote also. Top-posting eliminates this problem.

andyt

Reply to
Andy Turner

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