Toyota, GM, and Ford differences

I'm cross-posting this in alt.autos.gm with the hope that GM will improve its quality of manufacturing and avoid bankruptcy.

The latter half of the following Detroit News excerpt is especially helpful to GM.

From the Detroit News:

Toyota officials say the key to their system is that it taps the knowledge and insights of their team members.

They also give them a lot of training and responsibility. At Georgetown, or any Toyota plant, any team member has the power to stop the line by pulling what is called an "andon" cord. The term "andon" is derived from the Japanese word for paper lantern.

Once a worker pulls the cord, if the problem is not resolved before the car reaches the next stage of assembly, the line stops.

"It may hurt productivity, but it improves quality," said Brian Walters, J.D. Power research director.

Toyota encourages employees to pull the cord, despite the line stoppages, to expose problems and address them quickly. In Georgetown, workers reach for their cords 2,500 times a shift, and stoppages amount to 6-8 minutes per shift.

But, plant manager Convis said, "at Toyota, it's a problem if you run (the line) at 100 percent. Something isn't adding up, because life isn't (perfect) like that."

For the past year and a half, andon cords have hung along the assembly lines at GM's Oshawa plant. But the concept can get muddled in translation.

"We used to get 17 andon pulls per day," said Rod McVeigh, a supervisor in the assembly plant. "We're now targeting six a day."

But that might encourage workers to look out less for glitches.

Dennis Pawley, Chrysler's former manufacturing chief and now a consultant teaching Japanese manufacturing methods, says of the Big Three: "They don't understand that they don't understand."

Reply to
Built_Well
Loading thread data ...

Toyota could never put GM out of business. There are too many proud americans that buy GMs in some form..

Reply to
Adam

Never say Never. Lots of proud Americans are buying Japanese. Especially when they find out their Japanese trucks are made in the U.S., while their American ones are actually made in Canada or Mexico.

Reply to
Dan J.S.

I agree, Adam. Only GM could put GM out of business--more specifically GM management.

And as a proud American, let me say that GM management is coming awfully close with a Total Debt to Equity ratio of a whopping

12 to 1.

The way for GM Management to cut down the company's huge, huge 278 billion dollars of debt is to improve quality.

Whaddya say we make tomorrow "Andon Pulling Day!" Everybody at Oshawa, pull that Andon tomorrow and teach Management they need to pay attention to quality, not just give it lip service.

Reply to
Built_Well

People want quality, but not at any price. Every company seems to be quick to brag about their quality control, ISO certifications, and so forth, but not every one makes it work.

Quality programs often lead to better REPRODUCIBILITY, but you can continue to manufacture the same level of product. Most programs have a statement calling for continuous improvement of quality too, but it sometimes gets lost in the haze.

People may not be willing to pay for quality, but neither are they happy to accept shoddy goods.

GM and Ford would probably both be better off by declaring bankruptcy, and starting with fresh faces and ideas.

Reply to
<HLS

Our family Owns GM cars and trucks (as well as several Toyotas) so I don't want to see GM go under - it's bad for parts availability. But they're trying to set a lower target for Quality related line stops? What madness is this?

GM is going to put GM out of business all by themselves, simply through pure Dumbth. The troubles that Delphi is going through right now should be recognized as GM's "Canary in a Coal Mine", their 'Clue Phone' ringing.

If there's a problem with a car, you stop the line and try to fix it on the line, before giving up and flagging it for an expensive trip to the rework shop. And then you have to analyze what went wrong, and devise a solution to keep it from happening again.

They're about to go under if from no other reason than the sweetheart contracts the UAW has squeezed out of them.

Maintenance workers "Job Banked" and sitting around half the year, only working when the lines go down for change-overs or emergencies. Find them something useful to do the rest of the time, like the regular maintenance work at the offices and factories. Form a contracting division, and hire them out locally. Or schedule your line change-overs better - schedule the work staggered through the year, and have a traveling crew rotate between the plants. Hotel rooms per-diem and transportation for the workers has to be cheaper than "Job Bank".

I predict the only way for GM to remain viable is to go Bankrupt and destroy a bunch of investors and retirees who thought that GM stock was a bedrock. Default on all the under-funded pensions and toss them to the Federal Benefit Guarantee insurance which will destroy all the GM retirees, toss the other retiree benefits like Medical. Rework the current labor contracts to reflect reality. And slash their offerings in the marketplace (toss a nameplate or two overboard) which will destroy a bunch of dealerships. There's no clean way to do this.

And if they don't really get the idea on Quality, and fast, even that won't save them. The Domestic makers - GM, Ford and Daimler Chrysler - have gotten far better at building solid cars in the last

10 to 15 years, but they simply can't hold a candle to Toyota or the other Asian marques, where Quality is not just a buzzword.

If you don't build cars that people want to buy, it's not the buyers' fault. The SSR and some newer offerings look interesting, but they might be too little, too late.

If you lose money on every car, you can't "make it up on volume". And they were trying to make it all by building lots of high-margin SUV's and Trucks - till gas prices spiked and that market died.

-->-- Posted from a.a.Toyota

Reply to
Bruce L. Bergman

Reply to
razz

True. It will be GM that puts GM out of business.

Merritt

Reply to
Merritt Mullen

Why would anyone take the word of a top-poster? Learn how to post properly and people will give you more respect.

cordially, as always,

rm

Reply to
Realto Margarino

Razz,

I guess I'm another one of those idiots because I know for a fact that Toyota's don't experience the major problems US cars do. It's the only one I've not had trouble with. I have a friend who owns a transmission business and I've asked him just how many Toyota transmissions he works on. His answer---none, but plenty of Fords, GM's, etc. Facts are Facts and the foreign cars are built better, but then again, I'm just one of those american idiots, but a proud one !!!!

razz wrote:

Reply to
Joey

I really don't think it's the quality difference that's hurting them as much as their crappy car lineup and union agreements.

Reply to
scott21230

The data I have seen would indicate Toyota and Honda to have in the order of a half percent problems, Volkswagen about twice that, and some GM models in between. Doesn't seem like much, but they also don't tell much about how these data were obtained and how well the problems were resolved by the manufacturer. The dissatisfaction with GM and Ford seems to go deeper than just this statistic.

But I'll agree that the car lineup has not endeared itself to many in the USA, and the union agreements (a parameter related to poor management practices as well) seem to drain the lifeforce from these companies.

Reply to
<HLS

Who cares? I haven't owned a GM for 25 years, and it was clear to me after I dumped THAT piece of crap, that I would never own another one.

Heck, I even like my Chryslers better than those hunks of junk!

Reply to
Hachiroku

Both GM and Ford assembly workers have quality group meetings and have for years. In addition they can stop the line as well by simply hitting the stop button, located at each station. ;)

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

I do not think it is as much a problem of real quality "deficit" but more the rampant *perception* of bad quality from the buying public, along with GM management, union contract, etc...

No, wait, my venture is going back to the dealership yet again tomorrow for another problem with the ABS. It is GM bad quality after all!

Reply to
Frank

At the moment GM & Ford's lineups suck. They are trying to make something that isn't American. Economy cars are something that the Japanese do extremely well (good for poor people). Europeans make cars that are wonderfully built for narrow substandard roads (but if you think American cars are unreliable as they age you should look at BMW electronics and auto transmissions as they age......).

GM & Ford do fairly well with their cars produced in Canada (Gov't health care lightens the retirement millstone around their neck).

Ford and GM for some reason continue avoiding building what Americans want and love. Big, Powerful, Safe & Reliable cars. Instead we're relegated to buying trucks to get what we want. Most amazing of all the "never say die" Bankruptcy king Chrysler is leading the way. 300, Magnum, Charger, etc. One would think that with Ford's success in the new Mustang they could see what needs to be done but.....

Don't count the Big 3 out, just recall how Ford turned around in the

1990's.

PS When the Police and Cabbies start driving Toyota's and Suzuki's I'll begin to accept that Japanese quality extends beyond "initial quality".

Reply to
joe schmoe

That's only so they can sit and talk about what they absolutely need to do. Think bare minimum.

Reply to
Knotty

That may be your opinion but certainly not what we saw in my former fleet service business. We serviced thousands of vehicles monthly in our shops locate in six eastern states. No particular brand stands out from the others in dependability. We serviced nearly every brand of vehicle. Corporate fleets generally keep the vehicles they use, as tools in their business, for five years or 300K WOF because of federal corporate tax deprecation laws. We saw little difference among brands in terms of longevity when the vehicles were given the proper maintenance such as we provided. The only real difference among brands is style and the price of accusation, insurance, maintenance and parts. Any vehicle one buys today, domestic or foreign, well easily last to 200K or more is given decent maintenance. As a consumer who keeps their vehicle till it dies, one should be more concerned about the price of the car and its parts than the need for them, since they all need to be repaired at some point. As to the chance of your friend seeing more of particular brand, is like asking someone in the Bronx Zoo if they see more pigeons or penguins. One must remember GM has five times as many vehicles on the road and Ford four times as many as any other brand. Since Toyota arrived in the US in 1958, the past few years is the only time it has sold more than 1,000,000 vehicles annually, while GM and Ford sold more than half of ALL of the up to 19,000,000 vehicles sold annually in the US over the same period. Even today GM and Ford sell more trucks alone than does Toyota, Lexus, and Scion sells cars and trucks combined today.

mike hunt

"Joey" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@corp.supernews.com...

Reply to
Mike Hunter

What makes you believe that? GM sells far more cars than Toyota, somebody must like the cars they sell. Same with trucks and SUVs. GM sells more of those in two months than Toyota sells in a year. Toyota make good vehicles but apparently a lot of buyer prefer something other than a Toyota since the only sell around 10% of all the vehicles sold in the US ;)

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

What makes you think that? GM and Ford still sell for more than any other manufacture and more than all of the import brands combined. ;)

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

MotorsForum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.