The dealer has administrative costs associated with the collection and
sending in of the VAT. VAT is not a dealer charge, and the government wants
you to consider it as one so you are mad at the wrong party. If you thought
of the VAT as a government fee along with the mountain of other governemnt
fees, then you would be mad at the government. But if government can get you
to be mad at the dealership for collecting the VAT, then the government is
off the hook.
I'm not suggesting you simply swallow the VAT, I'm only suggesting that if
you are going to be mad about it, be mad at the proper party -- the
But, yes, you have to pay VAT. My point is that it isn't a profit center for
the dealership, so you should not look at the service fee as $100 + VAT, as
if the VAT goes to the dealer. Collection and administration of the VAT is a
cost center for the dealership, not a profit center. I'm certain that the
dealership would love to stop collecting the VAT if it could.
Seems like you limeys had an issue some 250 years ago with taxation without
representation. And you still have it.
There is a move afoot here in the Colonies to give us a VAT and do away with
the Income Tax that we pay. As a small business -- _very_ small business, I
think the VAT would probably drive me back to working for the man every
night and day. I don't have the resources to collect and pay a VAT on the
services I provide, and paying VAT on the services I consume is likely to
cause me to raise my prices which will decrease my business and increase the
percentage of costs to administer the VAT.
On Wed, 05 Jan 2011 14:16:58 -0800, Jeff Strickland wrote:
Here in the UK there is a threshold below which small businesses do not
have to register for VAT. It's currently defined thus:
If your turnover of VAT taxable goods and services supplied within the UK
for the previous 12 months is more than the current registration
threshold of £70,000, you need to register.
...or one quarter of that threshold in any three month period...
It's also worth pointing out to the OP that collection is trivial,
assuming you use some kind of vaguely sensible accounting software, and
being registered for VAT allows you to reclaim the VAT on any goods or
services you buy for the business.
Yes, it might decrease your sales - but, since all your competitors will
also have the same decision to make (absorb or pass on), it's not likely
unless you're supplying discretionary-purchase products.
FWIW I run a small business (in the UK) and voluntarily registered for VAT
as I was below the theshold of taxable income (income for services rendered
outside the EU is outside the scope of VAT).
Aside from the discipline it imposes by the quarterly return it takes me
very little time to do and gives me a great return on the time spent
reclaiming VAT. At the outset my accountant gave me a spreadsheet template
that automatically does the calculation and I since refined it to spit out
the VAT return numbers automatically as well. Admittedly my affairs are
simple but the tax isn't always such a hassle as people unfamiliar with it
In the UK the tax is not actually applied in the spirit in which it should
be, namely on everything but at a low rate. Here we have a lot of
exemptions and so the rate is quite high (but still not as high as in many
other EU states, even at the new rate of 20%). It is the boundary between
liability and exemption that is the cause of of many admin complications.
The tax has a certain logic, in that the tax is applied at every stage of
commercial transaction, but it is only the final buyer of the finished good
who pays the tax.
It is not meant as a replacement for income tax but could be implemented
that way if the economic and/or political economic environment allowed. It
is just another (indirect) tax.
To reply directly replace 'nospam' with 'schmetterling'
"Adrian" < email@example.com> wrote in message
I'm not mad at having to pay VAT. VAT is applied to nearly everything we
Individuals cannot get out from that form of taxation. Which is good.
Those that have the money to spend, pay the tax. That is how it should be.
Part of my point was the outrageous cost of the hourly rate, which is
double that of some other car marque main dealerships, even though their
cars are not that much cheaper to buy....
The other part of my point was; why should people living on the
breadline have to subsidise company executive perks such as; company
cars; high class hotels; restaurants; flights et cetera, that often get
squirrelled away under expenses / disbursements and end up being
reclaimed against tax.
Sure, I have had company cars, but it was not a perk as I was driving
950 miles per week, on average.
Those whom do 3,000 miles per year in a company car, what is the point
of that ? Why should I / we have to subsidise that ?
In some cases, a company gets to write off the whole cost of purchase in
the first year, therefore creating extra unearned profit at disposal, at
the cost of the taxpayer. Some of whom live off very small pensions.
Sorry for going off topic.
Umm, no they don't.
The car costs a lot more to buy / lease and run (as a private consumer)
than a co. user pays in tax on a company car. But, my complaint is not
the driver tax situation, rather the company tax relief that the tax
The other month, whilst at the Jaguar Learning Centre in the Birmingham
area, I was wandering around the car park during a break and more than a
dozen new-ish Jag coupes (not being a Jag fan, I don't know what the
models were) arrived with two execs on board.
They had been out for a jolly. Those cars were perks.
My point here is; I do not know how much those cars were, nor their CO2
output, but the depreciation of those cars written off against tax is
subsidised by the taxpayer in general.
You know this for a fact, do you?
Apart from the fact that virtually no company (at least outside the motor
industry) actually _owns_ their company cars - they're all leased - I'll
tell you for a fact that there will be virtually no depreciation put
against Jaguar's books for those cars, since they'll be sold as approved-
used cars at a few months old. As for whether they're co.cars or not -
I've got various friends that work for UK importers/manufacturers. They
have a choice of running them as company cars or effectively buying/
reselling. Where you're looking at cars with an annual tax bill
approaching ten grand (like those XKs for a 40% taxpayer) then it's most
certainly going to be preferable to do the latter.
They could have been given much cheaper alternatives
So when I read that, in some circumstances, companies can write off 100%
of the cost of the car in the first year against tax, none of them do then?
Someone owns them, had to buy them, unless the leasing companies lease
them from the manufacturer
So they did not cost Jaguar much to make, and run, them ?
Accountants are paid to find ways of avoiding the payment of tax.
The dealership I worked at (a while ago) did not own the cars in the
showroom, but had to pay the manufacturer a daily fee. We never got the
importer released company cars.
The last time I asked at a dealership, the demonstrators could not be
sold until they were six months old.
Probably, but when a company buys that Jag new, (and they do) they are
able to write off some depreciation against tax. ie, tax relief.
Also, for some, that ten grand annual tax bill is peanuts.
Then there are the car rental companies. I'm not sure if it is true, but
I read buying a fleet of the same model of car can net a reduction of
35% off the list price.
If that is true, then that demonstrates an inflated price of new cars to
No subsidy for me there then, if I were to buy new.
As I have stated, accountants are paid to find the loopholes in the tax
laws to reduce the tax liability for their company. All businesses do
this, and this effectively increases the payments by the individual.
I am not having an issue with co. car drivers. This is not an envy thing.
(OT) I could go out and buy nearly any car I wanted, but IMO, it is
obscene to spend enormous amounts on a car when, for example, £25 can
restore the sight of a blind person in India.
Not at all.
I do not believe that you speak for the hundreds of thousands of
companies that supply co. cars to their employees.
ffs ??? steady on... In these times, firms are looking to reduce costs.
Therefore, what I am saying is that the *true* cost of supplying and
running those cars, for employees, (just as an example) is not going to
be borne by Jaguar.
Some of those costs will be offset against tax. This is what accountants do.
^ I do not believe this statement is accurate.
I don't think you are looking at the bigger picture...
correction: No subsidy for the private new car buyer. (Not that I buy new.)
I am one insignificant individual amongst 6,729,286,xxx (and rising)
insignificant individuals, so I do not understand that comment.
I'm with Chris on this single point, the goal is a basic go-no go test. The
wave form specifics are not critical because the wave form will either be,
or not be.
It makes more sense to me to plug a diagnostic computer into the data link
connector. No matter what the vintage of the car, the DLC will tell a
qualified diagnostic program what is wrong. This, of course, means a trip to
a BMW specialist. This is one of the things that can go wrong with my car
that I can spend an afternoon trying to figure out, or have the trouble
isolated in a few minutes and have the repairs completed in short order.
I'm not certain, but I believe a Peake scan tool will isolate this problem.
You can pick up a Peake scanner from realoem.com or autohasaz.com or
On Wed, 05 Jan 2011 09:02:13 -0800, Jeff Strickland wrote:
You could jack up each corner of the car, and test the output of each
sensor, in less than an hour. At least I could, and I'm not a mechanic,
and I'm coming up to 65 years of age.
I'm guessing you are in the US? I believe the OP is here in the UK, so
things might be very different.
Firstly, you make an appointment with the dealer. At some times of year,
it might take up to two weeks before they have a slot.
Then drop the car off, and wait half a day minimum for a call to tell you
when you can pick it up.
It's likely that you would be charged for one hour of time. To put that
into perspective, one hour of a BMW dealer's service time here would buy
you a front ABS sensor, a rear ABS sensor *and* a usable DMM!
But at what cost? (Again, remembering the OP is in the UK, and this is a
On Tue, 04 Jan 2011 11:06:16 -0800, Jeff Strickland wrote:
(The OP's car is pre-E-OBD, so may have limited diagnostics.)
Examining the sensor rings and sensors for physical damage, cleaning
them, then unplugging the sensor connector, cleaning it, and reconnecting
it will resolve 50% plus of ABS faults. The diagnostic cost as a DIYer
will be zero.
The more competent DIYer should then be able to use a multi-meter to
determine which sensor might be faulty simply by comparison of readings.
Compare that to what a BMW dealer (at least here in the UK) will charge
No it won't.
In the case I mentioned in another post, the ABS module had a short
circuit internally for the warning lamp output. This wasn't monitored by
the diagnostics. (This wasn't a BMW, I should point out.)
Motorsforum.com is a website by car enthusiasts for car enthusiasts. It is not affiliated with any of the car or spare part manufacturers or car dealers discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.