BMW's nothing but problems??? Really???

It was a joke dude. Think I was going to let him off with saying Real BMW owners don't drive automatics?

Nonsense. If you prefer a stick fair enough, but as so much of todays everyday motoring seems to involve driving in heavy traffic, an auto makes much more sense. Go back 20 or 30 years and I might have agreed with you, but not in todays traffic conditions. I do agree with your other points though. In that it's his choice, and I also agree with most of the posters that say a BMW is not necessarily a money pit. Well maintained they are no more expensive to run than any other similarly classed car. Mike.

Anything you read here is anecdotal and involves a small sample size, skewed by people who have a strong opinion one way or the other. Objective surveys from Consumer Reports and JD Powers indicate that BMWs are more reliable than American makes (in general), but not as reliable as Acura and Lexus. We all know about Mercedes's quality downfall and bad customer service. If you enjoy the driving characteristics of a BMW, you just have to resign yourself to the higher probability of something going wrong and a higher lifetime cost of maintenance. This is worth it for some. Not my opinion, just a sober reading of the data. As for me, I put more weight on total quality and reliability. Once BMW fixes its reliability issues, designs a new navigation system, and drives down its total ownership costs to the level of a Lexus, I'll be a buyer.

In the UK, any manual BMW other than the very small ones would fetch very much less on re-sale. Perhaps it's because traffic densities are higher here?

People say this, but, my E91 3 series is in the first year of the model, is just over 2 months old with 2700 miles and I have not had to go back to the dealer for any post-production fixes (out of BMW's brand new factory). It is so far faultless. The only thing I can say about the first year model is that not all equipment on the options list is available yet, but everything I want is so no problem. OK it's early days and 1 car is not much of a sample, what is the big deal about first year of model cars?

Really! OK Lexus wins on the reliability by a bit, but its not like BMW's are "lemons"

Wierd, in the UK any Lexus is more expensive to buy and run than a competing BMW (though better equipped as standard), partly because a diesel has only just become available for the first time and only on the IS. Even with petrol/gas engines, Lexus are slow and thirsty compared to a BMW and servicing/parts is not cheaper.

Given the long service intervals on the new cars I worked out that the servicing is going to cost no more than Toyota/Honda

Absolutely true.... for any Mercedes. A Mercedes without an auto box is practically unsellable. On the 3 series manual boxes massively out number auto boxes in the market. 5 series and up and it's all change with the auto box being essential for re-sale.

I disagree with you. An automatic transmission has a torque converter. The SMG does not. A manual transmission has a clutch. The SMG has a clutch which is electronically engaged rather than manually with a pedal.

Eisboch

One of the most impressive things I noticed when I first bought a BMW ('01

750iL) was the precision of the automatic shifts. It actually sounds and feels like a manual, but isn't. Since then, we've had several BMW's, a '01 330ci, an X5 and currently a '06 750iL and a '06 M5. All had the superb Steptronic transmission except the M5 that has the SMG.

Eisboch

You serious?

Oh, sorry. I missed the sarcasm... ;-)

I agree in general. The only thing to keep in mind about the JD Powers and Consumer Reports surveys is they do not adequately differenciate between serious problems and niggling inconvenience issues. Since all require a visit to the dealership for warranty repair they are treated pretty much equally, accounting only for the frequency of total failures.

To me, the only important failures are the serious ones affecting driveability and safety. Minor problems with electronic gee-gaw, while of interest should not be of major concern.

No, it's the same thing here, except that your resale vales seem even more deflated than ours, so perhaps that is a bigger concern.

Are you saying that the differential in price at resale is greater (either in actual money or as a percentage) than the cost difference when new?

That would be interesting...

Possibly. In the Harley Davidson crowd, "Real men don't ride Sportsters."

Heh. Never a truer word spoken on the subject! Not anywhere on the interweb in any case (and probably never will again). =)

A CVT auto has a torque convertor? M-B made epicyclic autos for years with no TC - as did GM. A TC has nothing to do with a gearbox being an automatic. An automatic box is simply one which can start the car from rest and reach maximum speed with no input from the driver - other than just pressing the accelerator pedal.

An epilcylic one has several.

Better 'SMG' boxes like the Audi version have two clutches.

What is it with you guys? A manual has a manually operated gearchange and clutch. Make the clutch 'auto' and it becomes a semi-automatic. Automate the gearchange too and it becomes an auto. It doesn't matter about the actual gear train configuration - epicyclic, synchromesh or rubber bands - if the gearbox is capable of operating 'normally' with no input from the driver it's an auto. Everything else is simply the degree of driver over-ride.

As a percentage, yes. Possibly even as an absolute at three years old - the norm for lease cars being sold at auction. That's for my interest -

5-Series. I'd say it's likely different for the smaller 3-Series. M3s seem to sell best with SMG.

I know you were joking, but, sad to say, if you look at the % of sales of BMWs that are manuals vs. auto-magic, you will find the VAST majority are auto-magic.

The Ultimate Driving Machine is actually The Ultimate Rolling Living Room for a whole lot of buyers.

And it will go more that way as the new BMW ad agency was chosen with the goal of reducing the high-performance driving aspect of the BMW image and emphasizing a comfy luxo-barge image in the U.S.

Damn. You gave it away!

Dan

You know I haven't seen it mentioned, but I read that some of the manuals for BMW's were actually made by General Motors. Anyone else read or hear about this? On the other hand, the Auto's are made by BMW. Probably explains whey the auto is so good.

All you manual guys enjoy your GM tranny's. No wonder your not overwhelmed with the way they shift. You can get the same performance from a Chevy Cobalt. Bwaahhaahaa!

I wouldn't dare own a car with a crappy old GM transmission.

Real BMW drivers, drive real BMW's with real BMW transmissions. :-)

Also many conventional automatics have a manual mode these days to try to give the driver best of both worlds. I must say though that I rarely use it except the odd occasion when I want to lock the car in gear so that it won't change down. ...or when I'm accelerating in a hurry so I can change up when I want but then put it in auto for regular driving. The conventional manual box on my 3-series is probably the worst I've ever used.