One reason DRLs shouldn't be opposed...

This is the second time you've posted the same wrong thing. The alternator is not a constant current source, nor does it have a way to dissipate the "excess energy". There is some loss in the conversion from mechanical to electrical energy that is turned into heat as well as heat from friction in the bearings and the windings heating up from the large current running through them but it does not function the way you describe.

Have you ever been idling and hear your electric radiator fans come on and the engine idle change? What caused that? Hmm.. Must have been the alternator going from heat generator to current generator.. Yeah.. that sounds so much more feasible. Go measure the temperature of your alternator with all your accessories off and then with all your accessories on. Tell us what the temperature difference is. Don't you think if an 80 amp alternator had no current draw on it that it'd have to dissipate a lot of heat? At 12 volts, that's 960 watts!

I think you should go brush up on some alternator theory. I know I'm not the most knowledgeable guy around and I've been reprimanded by others here in the NG so I know how you feel about now. It sucks but it doesn't change the fact that you're wrong.

-Bruce

Reply to
Bruce Chang
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Ok Dan,

I stand corrected. It still seems a silly arguement to me.

Reply to
Rick Blaine

That was likely the initial/original reason a few years ago. The lighting control systems in GM vehicles have changed considerably since then. The DRL mode is now just a simple BCM programming change on most GM models now (by the dealer, not by the customer). However, the last time I read the GM policy on making that programming change, the entity requesting the change _must_ be either government or military. Otherwise, no. (That position could have changed)

Over the years GM has been so strongly promoting their versions and statistics touting the benefits of DRLs that they have essentially boxed themselves into a corner on the issue given what has transpired since the introduction. We now have several years of hindsight now...and it ain't exactly what was expected, it seems. Because of that history, they can't _morally_ turn them off, either for ego (save face) reasons or liability reasons or both. GM's competitors outsmarted them big time on this one with statements like "we're waiting on the final government conclusion on them...we don't have a position. But if you, Mr./Ms. Customer want them, we will give _you_ the choice". When one has a product to sell, customer choice is paramount. GM screwed up (in my opinion), they didn't plan for customer choice (and they should have). They also essentially pushed a largely untested DRL experiment on their customers, not only against their will, but without their specific consent in agreement to participate in their DRL experiment!

So, with that, I think the real issue (as of right now) is that there is a significant consumer backlash against DRLs and it is growing over time. Even current non-GM customers that might be "would-be customers" are often found to be "annoyed" by DRLs, especially some of GM's high beam implementations, in particular. Additionally, enough time has passed where real-world long term insurance data is available. From what my insurance company has told me, their "loss data" has not shown any apparent benefit of DRLs in actually reducing "loss" and some of the more recent studies that have been done by truly independent entities (not GM puppet entities) have been largely inconclusive. Other studies (on file with the NHTSA) tie DRLs to safety negative issues. Over time the customer has become more educated over the issue and most simply don't want DRLs any more (if most ever did). Result? GM is loosing sales because of it and they know it. People that don't want DRLs simply can't even consider a GM vehicle at all. Therefore, IF GM can somehow convince the NHTSA to make DRLs mandatory, they're back on even ground because all cars will have them (not just theirs), which then eliminates the competitive disadvantage they currently have, they "save face" too!

Make sense?

Reply to
James C. Reeves

Keep trying -- with practice, it gets easier to let go of your misinformed guesses and baseless prejudices when presented with facts.

Reply to
Daniel J. Stern

Where? Where is this heat being produced by the "excess of energy" you mention? In the battery? In the wiring? In the alternator? Can't be the battery; that would mean it's overcharging. Can't be the wiring; you'd be blowing fuses on any medium-to long daytime trips. Can't be the alternator because it actually runs hotter with the electrical accessories on than off (you can check this yourself with a contact pyrometer) due to the extra current being produced and the subsequent IR^2 losses. So where is this heat being produced when the headlights are off?

It's not. Alternators produce the amount of current demanded of them; they don't produce the same amount under all circumstances of loading. When you turn on the lights, more current flows from the alternator. This extra current produces a greater counter-electromotive force (CEMF) within the alternator which, in turn, causes extra drag on the engine through the belt. The engine must, therefore, consume more fuel in order to bring the speed back up to where it was. None of this is new; it's really pretty old stuff and is very well understood by those with any kind of background in electrical engineering.

You're arguing that alternators produce the same amount of current regardless of the load and that any excess load is dumped into some heat sink. In fact, they don't, and never have. It doesn't even make sense that they would, when it's so simple to design and build regulating systems to prevent that from occurring. Every automobile electrical system does just that. At least do a web search to find out how these systems work instead of relying on some sort of tribal knowledge which--pure and simple--has no correspondence in the real world.

Reply to
doc

Nope, that's still GM's policy.

Both. Rmemeber, automakers have been successfully sued for installing airbags and for *not* installing airbags.

GM knows how this works: Wait it out, and another issue will come along. Right from the very start, their position on the thousands of complaints received by NHTSA has been "People just like to complain". It does not help that the anti-DRL groups use their websites and forums as platforms for diarhhea-type (wet, messy and spattered all over the place) rants about government intrusion into personal lives, blah blah antismoking laws blah blah taking away freedom blah blah irrelevant blahbitty blah blah. It plays right into GM's hands, as they can (and did!) smugly state to NHTSA "It seems most of the complaints are coming from a group of political malcontents."

Exactly.

This is probably very close to the way it's really happening.

Reply to
Daniel J. Stern

Dang, oh dang! I meant I^2R (the square of the current multiplied by the resistance) losses, of course. My physics professors and Georg Ohm would have my butt for that one. Sorry.

Reply to
doc

| > The offensiveness of DRL's is that they are a significant drain all of the | > time. | | A significant drain?! This just keeps getting better and better. Whether | you love or hate em DRL's are not a significant energy waster, this is a | stupid argument. And some people are too stupid or just don't care to turn | their lights on in low visibility conditions, so there is a need for them. | I seem to recall people criticizing the addition of a 3rd brake light as | needless. I used to think so too. But, look at how many people seldom | check to see if their brake lights are working. At least now there is a 1 | in 3 chance that you'll see a brake light! | |

The headlamps are indeed one of the largest electrical energy users on a vehicle relative to the remaining electrical devices.

Reply to
James C. Reeves

| >

| > A significant drain?! This just keeps getting better and better. Whether | > you love or hate em DRL's are not a significant energy waster, this is a | > stupid argument. | | Then you SHOULD be able to produce some non-stupid math that disproves | the article.... I'm still waiting. | | Intuition: 0 | Mathematics: 1

He can't...even the official DRL support groups generally agree with the electrical requirements (thus fuel required to power them)...it is not disputable (or disputed) by those that matter.

Reply to
James C. Reeves

You probably like the punchline to a joke first, too. Saves the tediousness of having to listen to the set-up.

Have you heard the one that ends, "Only if you get your thumbs in between?"

Reply to
doc

I agree with you...not sure why people _want_ to waste time to scroll to the bottom of every message when, if top posted, one could quickly just click through the thread rarely needing to ever scroll at all. But, we're in the minority.

| > There, this Canadian Idiot put his post on the bottom where everyone wants | > it. : ) | | |

Reply to
James C. Reeves

All this talk of giving and taking a $hit reminds me of a photo someone e-mailed me today:

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Bill Putney (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with "x")

Reply to
Bill Putney

Some DRL implementation _continuously_ (not intermittently) consume up to 100 watts of _electrical_ power. I don't think there is any other single device on a car that consumes that much _electrical_ power, is there? Not even the blower on high and certainly not any factory radio. Yes the A/C consumes more fuel, but that is pulley driven (direct power take-off from the engine), not electrically driven (except the condenser and evaporator fans).

But you're right, irrelevant point anyway.

Reply to
James C. Reeves

LED's generally have a 50,000+- hour life span...far exceeding the life of the car. Replacement need would be rare (accident or damage).

Reply to
James C. Reeves

"Larry Bud" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@posting.google.com... | "James C. Reeves" wrote in message news:... | > | "Rick Blaine" wrote in message | > news:j4RNc.127489$od7.72114@pd7tw3no... | > | | > | | > | Man, what a load! | > | | > | | >

| > Curious why that sentiment. The electrical generation to power the lamps comes | > from.....exactly where if not from the alternator which is driven by the engine | > which runs on gasoline. The electrical energy isn't free, for heaven's sake! | > It comes from somewhere. Even if you use the lights with the engine off and | > drain the battery a bit, the alternator (thus the engine fueled by gas) had to | > consume a bit more horsepower to generate the electrical energy to recharge the | > battery. | | This IS a load of crap. How is the alternator causing the engine to | run harder? Answer, it's not. You're right, electrical energy | isn't free, as the excess of energy from the alternator is turned into | heat. Alternators also have electronic from preventing from | overcharging the battery, so it's has power "in reserve" so to speak. | Your engine runs no harder if you have zero electrical components on, | or every single one of them. The only accessory which consumes gas (I | don't consider a water pump an accessory, it's a necessity) is A/C. | If you really want to save gas, ban auto air conditioning. | | Now you may ask, what's the difference? Well, when you turn the AC | on, it causes the AC clutch to engage, which causes the compressor to | compress. It directly robs power from the engine to run that | compressor. Just like when you were a kid you had one of those lights | which ran off of the tire. The little generator caused drag on the | tire (engine). | | But the alternator is just a spinning motor, and it's going to spin | whether you have DRLs on or off.

Physics Bud, physics. Need to brush up on the 'ole physics.

Reply to
James C. Reeves

The A/C is pulley driven but what turns off the compressor when you don't want A/C? That device would be the electrically actuated clutch which has to draw current to hold the clutch in place.

Reply to
Bruce Chang

Sure. Many people have written to the NHTSA exposing GM's motivation with the same reason as you stated. Go to:

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Search Docket 4124 for DRL complaints or Docket 8885 for headlightcomplaints in general. There is also a newer Docket 17243 that dealswith the withdrawal of the NHTSA from rulemaking for or against GM'spetition. Curiously, the NHTSA did not post their intent to withdraw inthe 4124 Docket, or refer anyone reading Docket 4124 to go to Docket17243.

Reply to
Sharon K.Cooke
400-600 million gallons of gasoline unnecessarily consumed annually within the USA alone is silly? Hmmm.....
Reply to
James C. Reeves

NO, 17243 is a withdrawal of NHTSA's Notice of Proposed Rulemaking to reduce DRL intensity to levels below those which cause glare. That was NOT GM's petition to mandate! NHTSA is "considering the interesting information GM has given" them and feels "the glare issue is best considered in the context of any decision on GM's petition to mandate DRLs".

The glare reduction was to have taken effect in 1998, BTW.

Reply to
Daniel J. Stern

Abduhl the camel mechanic.

Reply to
Neil Nelson

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