ping Daniel Stern was RE:Starving 95 Neon

Oh, y'know, just ownership of six fuel-injected Chrysler products made between '89 and '97, *none* of which had a "clear-flood" mode.

DS

Did one include a 95 Neon?

A '97.

Whatever possessed you to buy a Neon? :-)

Sorry, Dan. You are wrong on this one. All Power module/Logic module, SMEC, SBEC 1, 2 2A, 2B, SBEC3, 3A, and 3+'s and FCC controllers have all had clear food modes. That list covers all FWD vehicles from 83 1/2 through 2001 and RWD vehicles 88 through 95. In 96 all the RWD product got JTEC (Jeep/Truck Engine Controller) controllers and the JTEC and JTEC+'s also have a clear flood mode, it just works a little different form the others. The JTEC's and SBEC's are being replaced by NGC (Next Generation Controller) 1, 2 and 3's. I haven't looked at those closely, but I bet they have it in some form, probably the JTEC version.

SBEC/FCC/Power Module - Logic Module version of clear flood works like this: open the throttle and then crank the engine. When the throttle is opened with the key on, engine off ; the PCM zeros the pulse width until the RPM breaks the start to run transfer RPM (about 400 - 450 RPM). If the engine isn't flooded, then this action will cause a no start condition.

JTEC has 2 pulse widths, cranking pulsewidth and run pulsewidth. To activate the clear flood mode on these, you must start cranking the engine and then open the throttle to wide open. If the PCM sees the RPM input from the crank sensor and then it sees the TPS go to WOT and the crank RPM doesn't get to the start to run transfer RPM, then the cranking pulsewidth will start retreating towards 0 mS. This JTEC mode is extremely hard to demonstrate, but is much more realistic in the way it works.

Bill Sprague, Chrysler technician 1986-1996, Chrysler Technical Trainer

Bill, why did you give up on Chrysler in '02?

Matt

Sorry, Matt. I'm not going into corporate politics here. It was just time to go. I still think the product is a good product and I still love teaching, but now I teach for Volvo Penta, the marine propulsion segment of Volvo AB. I occasion this newsgroup, but I don't have a whole lot of time to answer a bunch of posts, so I pick a few every once in a while and answer them.

Bill

And Matt, I th>

I was just curious.

Very likely, as it is. So why are you still doing it? Good teachers should be good learners also! :-)

Even if bottom posting hadn't been a convention since the dawn of ARPAnet, it simply makes sense. English writing people write and read from the top down. Bottom posting maintains the chronology in the direction we read. I'm amazed that otherwise logical people can't figure this out.

Matt

Then why is the Microsoft default in Outlook Express at the top ? :)

Bill

Sorry, Matt, that may be what your book says, but in the real world, it's not correct. None of my AA-bodies (2.5 TBI, 2.2 Turbo III, 3.0) has/had a clear-flood mode, nor does my '89 D100 (5.2 TBI).

Next time you're in Toronto, stop by and you can show me this clear-flood mode that doesn't exist. Perhaps it's only *my individual* cars that don't have it, hmmm?

DS

(This should've been directed at Bill Sprague, not Matt Whiting -- sorry, Matt)

Sorry, Bill, that may be what your training manual says, but in the real world, it's not correct. None of my SBEC AA-bodies ('91 and '92 2.5 TBI, '91 2.2 Turbo III, '92 3.0, '92 2.5 Turbo II) has/had a clear-flood mode, nor does my SMEC '89 D100 (5.2 TBI).

On all the cars I've listed, fully opening the throttle and then cranking the engine causes the engine to start and immediately rev, whether the throttle is opened before or after the ignition key is turned to "on". Clear-flood *does not* exist on these cars.

I've rented Ford products with the clear-flood mode, but none of my Chrysler products have had it. Next time you're in Toronto, stop by and you can show me this clear-flood mode that doesn't really exist. Perhaps it's only *my individual* cars that don't have it, hmmm?

DS

Dan,

Your observation is correct, I did forget about another strategy on most of those older models that would make the clear flood mode unobservable without a scan tool. Most of those models you mentioned had a priming pulse from the injectors at key on. So if you didn't actually have a flooded engine, the priming pulse would give you enough fuel to cause the RPM to get past the start to run transfer and then override the clear flood mode because, obviously the engine wasn't flooded. (with the 3.0L, the injectors leak enough that clear flood will almost always be overridden)

I do get to Toronto about once a year on my way to Orillia. I will let you know if I get up there this winter or next spring.

Best regards, Bill

Yes, I have the same problem with Outlook at work. Leave it to MS to be both illogical and different at the same time. That is why I still use Netscape for mail and news.

Matt

Sorry, Dan, but I didn't post the above. As soon as you learn to use your newsreader, I'll stop by and then we'll straighten you out on how your ECU works. :-)

Matt

Now *this* makes good sense -- rare indeed is the flooded EFI engine; certainly a clear-flood mode would get (I'm guessing) perhaps 1/1000 the use over the life of the car of the device it replaced, the carburetor choke unloader tang.

Please do! (Ain'tchya even a little bit curious about the SBEC calibration on my list that kinda sorta shouldn't really exist?)

Dan, too much water over the dam on that one. You will have to tell me which one shouldn't exist and why. That's like asking me to remember prehistoric history. All those models are ancient history to me now. Of the ones you mention, the rarest engine is the turbo3. There were very few built. I was thinking that the turbo2 ended before 92, they came out in 87 but I don't remember which year they ended.

Bill