Diesel Starting Problem

Hi

I have a Citroen Synergie 1999 1.9TD (60k miles) which isn't too relevant because it has a Peugeot engine which is fitted in lots of cars!

Anyway, when I start it from cold the glow plug indicator lights up and goes out after about six seconds, if I try to start the car it just turns over. If I heat the glow plugs about 4 times, it is fine and will start (with some white/grey smoke, not much)

If I run it for about 2 minutes, turn the engine off, it starts fine and will be fine for the rest of the day.

Now, you instantly think it is the glow plugs, well....we had this problem last winter and had the glow plugs replaced and it seemed ok, but since it was getting warm, it wasn't really a problem over the summer, again the problem recurred and took the car to my mechanic, who charged me £35 for him to diagnose the problem with the computer so that he could fix it!!! He said two of the plugs had failed, strange, since they were just over 12 months old, oh well got them replaced and got the car back and it was fine and then after just a few days the problem is recurring.

I have fitted a new battery as the currently fitted battery was 400 amps (but healthy), the new one is 700 amps.

Is the problem could be to do with the glow plug relay burning the plugs out, as it is faulty. Or could this also have been because the battery was the wrong one?

Help!! PS. I have learnt alot about diesels!

Reply to
Rich
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supply and they should glow red within 10 secs. If they don't they're knackered. I suppose if the plugs are on all the time they will fail quickly, that is to say that the relay is not cutting out after the appropriate time. You can probably check that by putting a meter or bulb across the plug which should light then go out after some 30 seconds or so. They will not necessarily go out when the light on the dash goes out, that's just to tell you it's OK to try to start the car.

TonyB

Reply to
TonyB

The problem is probably the heater relay burning out. What happens with these units is that the relay load contacts start to burn, this in turn causes the relay to heat up, causing the bi-metal strip to switch the relay off to soon and acting as a resistor in the heater plugs supply - IOW a double whammy and a difficult engine to start from cold!

Reply to
:Jerry:

Total tosh! When the light goes out it does so because the relay has cut the power to both the warning light and the heater plugs - if the circuit worked as you suggest PSA could save a lot of money in parts and labour by just printing "After turning the steering column key to the 'On' position, count 10 seconds and then start the engine" in the drivers instruction manual....!

Reply to
:Jerry:

Not necessarily tosh. Some cars keep the plugs on for a short while after the engine starts to help with cold running or so I'm told.

Reply to
malc

Rich ( snipped-for-privacy@here.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :

Do you know what brand of glow plugs were put in a year ago? Some of them are cheap s**te, and a year is a good innings...

You said two of the newish ones have already been replaced - the other two could well have died.

Unlikely. The amp rating of the battery is mainly to do with the ability to spin the starter motor on a cold morning. The glow plugs won't draw anything like that much.

Reply to
Adrian

Hi, can't really help you with the starting problem except to say that I also have a 1999 TD Synergie and its good to know that I am not the only one on this forum that has one. I do find that if its been a cold night, then sometimes it will take 2 attempts to get mine running, I find that holding the clutch pedal down while turning the engine over seems to help.(no idea why this helps). My Synergie has 132,000 miles on the clock though ,so I allow it a little extra to get running.

GGJ

Reply to
Gary G Jones

Gary G Jones ( snipped-for-privacy@btopenworld.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :

Might be worth looking at getting the gearbox oil changed, perhaps a slightly thinner oil put in. What's happening is that - without the clutch depressed - the input shaft of the 'box is being spun by the starter along with the engine, and that's sapping some of the "oomph".

Reply to
Adrian

No it's not total tosh, what you are saying is though. On all the PSA turbo diesel engines the light goes out after a few seconds to indicate that you should be able to start OK, but the heater plugs are kept on for up to a couple of minutes to reduce smoke output. They are turned off either when the temprature rises in the block enough, or the throttle is kept above a certain setting for a given period.

Reply to
Brian

You could still have some faulty glow plugs. There are two types of plug made for these engines, the type for the turbo are made to stay on longer each start, so will last longer overall. Do not get the plugs for the non turbo model. It is also possible that you have a faulty glow plug relay, in that the light still comes on, but no power is actually being supplied to the plugs. The only way to test for this is with a voltmeter attached to one of the plugs while you turn on the ignition. You can also check the individual plugs by measuring the resistance of each, but you have to disconnect each one in turn from the supply cable. Faulty pugs will normally be open circuit. Normal resistance cold is under one ohm.

Reply to
Brian

Can you cite that please? All the relays I've have come across turn both light and heater plugs off at the same time.

Reply to
:Jerry:

I've never come across that but then I've only been in the trade for

30 years so could have missed some applications I suppose...
Reply to
:Jerry:

Err, except that you are placing a considerable side loading onto the crankshaft, many cars *wont* start with the clutch peddle depressed due to this, certainly putting a thinner oil might reduce 'drag' from the input shaft might you might just end up causing more friction when the oil breaks down in use and at high temperature!....

Reply to
:Jerry:

On the Renault Megane, the glowplugs can remain on for up to three minutes after the engine has started depending on conditions. They stay on always for between ten and thiry seconds after the indicator light goes out and then depending on engine load and other conditions for a varying length of time.

Reply to
PB

Fairy 'nough then, I assume this is on HDi engines, but considering that this thread is about a 1999 PSA diesel engine I hold to my original remark about the comment by TonyB.

Reply to
:Jerry:

:Jerry: ( snipped-for-privacy@INVALID.INVALID) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :

Unlikely in a Megane... dCI, p'raps...

Lovely, an' all. Shame the HDi has been around since '98 - a '99 Synergie could be either 1.9TD or 2.0HDi.

Reply to
Adrian

Firstly, I am aware that the Haynes manual is not always absolutely correct, but the post heating is well documented in there. Secondly, if you look at the Bosch injection pump, you will see a small microswitch on the top, which is activated by the trottle arm. this is what turns the post heating off in some conditions. It is obviously very similar to the Megane engine in this respect.

Reply to
Brian

How does depressing the clutch put a side load onto the crank?

Can you say which cars won't start with the clutch depressed? I've driven hundreds of different makes/models and ALWAYS depress the clutch to start - so as to avoid false neutrals - and have never encountered even one that won't start.

Reply to
SteveG

If you need to ask that you must be clueless as to how a clutch works, or not thinking before pressing 'Send'...!

If you are causing the release bearing to push against and hold the clutch diaphragm spring compressed (by depressing the clutch pedal) the crank will attempt to move way from the clutch cover, this movement will be within the crankcase and cause the crankshaft to be forced into heavy contact with crankshaft side thrust (end float control) bearings - this is why they are fitted, an engine doesn't need these thrust bearing unless there is a side thrust present. It's also possible to find the opposite happening if light pressure is applied to the clutch pedal were the engine has end float issues, you can find slight up and down movement of the clutch pedal.

Many, of all makes and models, fresh from the factory all should start with the clutch depressed, 50 / 70k down the road some will still start OK whilst other won't.

Reply to
:Jerry:

Well my one has made it to 130,000+ so far. So I think its a little late to worry about it now, although like I said I don't always start it with the clutch pressed.

GGJ

Reply to
Gary G Jones

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