Re: Fuel Injection for 4 cylinder Triumph Engines

snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.co.uk (James) realised it was 20 Sep 2003 04:24:56 -0700 and decided it was time to write:


http://www.teglerizer.com/fi /
There's a lot more info behind the menu at the top of that page.
--
Y.

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It would, and sorting out the fuel metering would prove near impossible, IMHO. Better to use a modern EFI system that allows user programming - they are made. But it will cost. That would still leave the difficulty of making an inlet manifold to take the injectors. I suppose you could use carbs for the throttle bodies and fit a TPS.
But all in all, a lot of work. Since you'll end up with something totally non standard, why not simply fit a modern engine that already has injection - like a Rover K Series, that would have been fitted anyway if the Spitfire had continued production?
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Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@argonet.co.uk London SW 12
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If you get a manifold to take twin 40DCOE carbs, then you can fit various makes of throttle bodies with EFI injectors.
You can then chose a suitable ECU. There's a lot out there! The UK built M3D is well known.
I find EFI much simpler than carbs. (But then I'm an electronic design engineer so perhaps I should!)
--
Chris Morriss

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Personally I find carbs (SU type) much simpler. But then I'm a software engineer producing fuel injection systems for a living...
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Rob Pearce
Club Triumph Spitfire and GT6 consultant
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21 Sep 2003 09:26:18 +0100 and decided it was time to write:

LOL!
--
Y.

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You can buy throttle bodies to house the injectors that directly replace Weber DCOE carbs, although I suspect this might be over kill for the Triumph engine Dave Andrews Robin Hodd site has info and links to the the Jenvey and Emerald M3D sites which should give you the info you need. When buying and off the shelf ECU it is important that the software for setting up the injection and ignition maps is included in the price. If going this far I would be tempted to ditch the Triumph engine and put a K16 engine in as it would work out cheaper and the Triumph has a notoriously weak bottom end in its longer stroke forms.
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a
the
on
those
stick
Loads of bits around for converting K16 to rwd, usual way is to use a Ford Type 9 gearbox (heavy but easy to get) either via a special alloy bellhousing or if a geabox from a 2.3 V6 Sierra is used by a conversion adaptor. This type of conversion is popular in Marina, Morris Minor, Midget and even MGBs -- which is odd because the A and B series engines were the best bit of the Marina. Other stumbling blocks are the clutch and flywheel and of course fitting a spigot bush to the crank. Adds up to a lot of money but about the same cost as putting throttle body injection on the Triumph engine.
I forgot to add the url for Dave Andrews home page which has lots of good info on all sorts of car topics http://hometown.aol.com/DVAndrews /
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Why on earth would you want to use single point? It was always a compromise solution, and with the Triumph engine having a proper cylinder head it can take port injection.
(Incidentally, the late model Mini was fitted with Rover's MEMS fuel injection system, and it did work remarkably well for such a problematic engine.)
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Rob Pearce
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Robert Pearce wrote:

What theory do LPG conversions use? Just wondering whether a modern conversion complete with Lambda sensor, etc., would do what he wants, with the added benefits of cheaper fuel (as long as the duty is frozen) and not compromising the car's originality to such an extent.
(Just thinking aloud, as usual)
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LPG is a different kettle of fish altogether, as it's (usually) injected as a gas. Thus a single-point type solution is not unreasonable. In the few cases of very high pressure LPG injection (keep it liquid until the last possible moment) they are all port injected AFAIK.
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Rob Pearce
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Robert Pearce wrote:

Thanks Robert, point taken. However, assuming that the original poster wants to convert to fuel injection in order to make use of more up-to-date metering technology, I'm still wondering whether an LPG conversion wouldn't be just as effective a way of doing so for perhaps a lot less money?
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Robert Pearce wrote:

I referred to a mini not triumph as an example that was converted.
It was Jap car that the system came from for a start. It was much simpler than multi point to fit to the mini (as you have kindly pointed out triumph heads are of different design) - it was a toy thing to do at the time.
In other words - there doesn't seem much of a problem fitting fuel injection and having it work, single or multi, which ever suits the car and the expertise workshop equipment etc. in fitting and map tuning.

I know that.
The whole project was carried out to be different and have a fuel injected Mini. (not just a bolt on)
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From a recent conversation, I understand that the throttle bodies from a Triumph 2.5PI are more or less a direct fit, an adaptor plate being necessary to enable the exhaust mounting studs to locate correctly. The big difficulty is in obtaining an appropriate metering unit - available from specialists in the US but at high cost. The original Triumph works 4-cylinder metering units were never produced in any great numbers at the outset, the chances of finding one at autojumble are virtually nil.... Cheers, Bill.
-- Rarebits4classics .......just what you've been looking for
PO Box 1232 Calne Wiltshire SN11 8WA United Kingdom http://www.rarebits4classics.co.uk
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big
Just a thought along the Pi route...would the Bosch K-jetronic injectors fit the holes in the throttle bodies? If so, (and assuming you got the PI TB's to fit), how about using the rest of a K-Jet setup? At least it's 20-odd years newer, and there IS a wealth of knowledge about for it. Bits are F-cheap (sure i've got a metering unit and some injectors you could have for a beer fund donation). NO electrickery invloved, just three electrical connections, IIRC (warm-up reg, aux air valve via switch and pump).
Phil
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But how do you set the metering correctly? The beauty of an EFI setup is that it can be made to be easily programmed, although I doubt this would be the case if using a stock one.
I wonder if those contemplating this sort of mod know what they're letting themselves in for?
I changed the cam on my SD1 EFI for a slightly hotter one said to work perfectly with my setup. And never got the thing to run properly. In the end I reverted to the standard one. Injection engines run at much closer fuel and ignition settings than older carb and points types, so any variations in the fuelling etc requirements from standard can make them just not run properly.
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Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@argonet.co.uk London SW 12
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Actually the beauty of the K-jetronic is that it's almost like a carburettor, and hence easy to set up. It's a mass air flow based device, so inherently more tolerant than manifold pressure (or even throttle position) based units, whether they be mechanical or electronic. The metering is achieved by a profiled needle, and it's such a ubiquitous device (fitted to both the Golf GTi and the Escort XR3) that there is no shortage of experts out there.
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Rob Pearce
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Well, my Lucas system uses an AFM, but it's anything but tolerant of changed inlet manifold depression.
I'm not saying you're wrong of course, since I've not tried it. But finding an expert who can set these things up could well prove difficult.
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*I wish the buck stopped here. I could use a few.

Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@argonet.co.uk London SW 12
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Which Lucas system is it? IIRC most of the AFM-based EFi systems back-calculate manifold pressure for transient fuelling and ignition advance. This will put them back into the totally-intolerant-of-any-changes category. K-jetronic doesn't bother with transient fuel and relies on a conventional distributor for ignition.

Well I can't say I've tried it myself, either, but there are a lot more places claiming to be "Bosch Injection Specialists" (i.e. we know K-jetronic quite well) than there are that admit to knowing EFi systems.
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Rob Pearce
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fit
TB's
for
I seem to recall there's a Vitesse running a hybrid Bosch/Lucas system set up just like this with Lucas TBs and Bosch injectors. Didn't the Triumph Sports Six Club's old Spitfire Technical secretary make a Lucas injected Spitfire once upon a time? Can't remember his name, will have to look it up - was it Karl (Carl) Swanson I think his name was (I could be wrong!) Sorry I'm rambling now..... I've never seen 4 cylinder Lucas injection, have seen Stag 8 port Lucas injection parts - whatever happened to the Teclamit-Jackson system? That was a similar technology to the Lucas system and found it's way onto Imps and the racing machinery of the time. Mentioned in Vizard's Triumph book - last seem in .pdf format here http://fot-racing.com /
--

J

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Thanks for the suggestions so far. Certainly something to think about. I have to say I think I am tempted to give the K-Series engine a miss purely due to the cost factor. Not only would I need to purchase the engine, there is also the gearbox, drive train and diff to take into consideration. Somehow I don't think that the diff that is currently fitted would be too happy with the power from a Rover engine going through it. Also I have spent quite a bit of money on a new Spit engine which has been blueprinted etc, so I would be somewhat reluctant to junk it. I do have the parts for the 2.5pi system which I purchased a few years ago. I did have this reset for a four cylinder engine after speaking to Carl the tech sec for the TSSC who had done the original conversion. Unfortunately the metering unit/fuel pump have seen better days and frankly it ran like the proverbial dog. It is now running on 2 1.5 SUs which it clearly doesn't like. Presumably this is something to do with the "hot" cam that is fitted.
Looks like it is either the EFI route or the K-Jetronic route then.
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