With ultra-clean fuel available at pumps, diesel cars are re-entering the
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- With rising gas prices, diesel cars and SUVs are
gearing up for a major American comeback after a brief appearance 25 years
ago. But if all you remember are the smell and noise, you might not
recognize the new leaner, cleaner versions.
Back in the early 1980's, 80 percent of the cars Mercedes-Benz sold in the
U.S. were diesel powered. General Motors sold diesel Oldsmobiles and
The reason then was obvious: Adjusted for inflation, the cost of gasoline
then was about $3.15 a gallon. Buyers were looking for a more fuel-efficient
way to drive.
Diesel engines were noisy, they were slow [I drove my Aunt's
Mercedes..seemed like 2 minutes to get to 60] and they puffed out nasty
polluting smoke. But they used much less fuel than gasoline engines, so
buyers were willing to put up with the downsides.
As gas prices went back down, relative to other costs, and environmental
regulations became stricter the tide of diesels rolled back across the
Atlantic leaving only memories of clanky, foul smelling diesel cars.
Today, while half the cars sold in Europe are diesels, diesel market share
in the U.S. is about 3.5 percent and that's mostly pick-ups, according to
R.L. Polk & Co.
With a hungry European market to feed, diesel development has continued,
creating turbocharged diesel engines that perform better and pollute less.
Today's diesel cars are virtually indistinguishable from their
gasoline-burning siblings. Except they use a lot less fuel..............
Not quite true as they are nasty NOx generators. So bad that even if
you reduce their NOx emission 75% they still exceed gas NOx by a wide
margin. Until recently they can basically been unregulated in NOx
emissions. Stricter controls will cramp it more in future.
On Thu, 03 May 2007 20:38:29 -0400, Chris Thompson
No, you miss the point, I hate engine that are dirty and smelly at
times. If gas engine had as few emission restrictions as diesels have
had they would be different animals today. The point I am making and
that diesel lovers hate to talk about when their ego is deflated is
that they are going to have to comply in future and clean up their act
which is going to increase that purchase and maintainance price in
future and when you do the bottom line where you add up purchase
price, fuel, maintainance and such over life of vehicle it will likely
not save you a dime and likely cost you more out of your pocket to own
and operate. Also the future lays with engines that will be able to
run gas, alchol (grain or coal based), Biobutanol, CNG, Propane and
P-series fuel and this will be gas style motors. Diesel has a very
limited diet potentail and bio diesel offers no long term solution for
masses though some like to think otherwise.
now your talking major engine redesign (your gas burner will run on these
fuels) as the engines in cars today will not be fully efficient with these
fuels as the engines are not built to run those fuels. if you want a
engine to be efficient you build it to run on a fuel, not adapt it to run
a fuel. your propane/CNG fuels require a different distribution
infrastructure that isn't in place. this costs money to put in place and
who do you think is going to pay for that infrastructure?
and yes i am one of the people who like bio for a resource, I'm not saying
stop researching anything else but i do see it as a much more viable
alternative than CNG. because of the infrastructure and engine
requirements to run it at full efficiency. as i have stated before, you
put bio in an existing truck it runs with little change in performance
(mine does). but you put alcohol in your gasser and the performance/mpg
On Fri, 04 May 2007 07:40:59 -0400, Chris Thompson
You are wrong here. A gas engine as it sits can run on Biobutanol
stock (just needs different fuel line hose or aclhol compatable ones)
and P-series fuel will run too (pentane based). Alchol fuel can run as
well with bigger injectors and proper hoses. Alchols does better with
higher CR but americas love for 87 limits that. BioButanol and
P-series fuel need no compression changes and while Bio Butanol uses a
fermantation process simular to ethanol, it has only about 10% less
BTU per gallon than gas while Ethanol has about 40% less. It will be a
few years before you see Biobutanol and P-series in volume but the
whole science behind them is that they will work in a current motor
with little tweaking, if any, and run well and Biobutanol does not
have the issues with cold weather starting that ethanol does. Nor will
P-series. As far as CNG or Propane, again they can work in a current
motor with a change of fuel feed to engine but they can really shine
with higher conpression as again we are strangled by this 87 octane
thing. If they would take 87 of the market (phase it out) and go to
one grade of fuel of 93 octane or so (kinda like a diesel has one
basic grade), car makers could make cars with much higher compression
with better power and MPG and better efficency with fuels such as
alchol, CNG and ProPane. The funny part is 87 octane is making fuel
cruch worse because it force less effiecnt engine design which require
more fuel to do same job but most do not realize this. Also if they
sold only 93 octane then they could use other tanks for other kinds of
The reason the diesels had fewer restrictions in the past was because there
were fewer of them. The new restrictions are quite a bit tighter, especially
for the fuel.
Sorry, had you not noticed the past 10 years of Cummins Engines for OTR
applications? All of them are using the Interact System, and all are
electronically controlled. Thus, they have been clean for a number of years.
Prior to that, diesel emissions were mainly particulate. As such, a gasoline
engined car driving on a dirt (or a dirty road) road would stir up more
dust. Take a look, and you'll find that diesel fuel has always burned
cleaner than gasoline when it comes to most anything they "sniff" for at the
tailpipe. This assumes proper tune to the engine, of course.
Actually, not all that much. The Cummins adds a significant amount to the
price of a truck, but then so did the V10, and the Hemi isn't much better.
However, this additional price can be recovered in the higher resale value.
False. A diesel wants filter changes and oil changes. Filters are cheap, and
easily changed. A gasoline engine wants sparkplugs, coils, wires, AND
filters and oil changes. Furthermore, the oil change intervals on the
gassers are shorter. Time to install the plugs and wires can add up in labor
charges, especially if you own one of those nifty Ford Triton engines.
You are sadly misinformed. In fact, you obviously don't know that one safety
hazard of owning a diesel for industrial applications is the need for an
auto-shutdown device. This prevents the engine from over-revving in the
event that combustible materials are sucked into the engine, such as
gasoline fumes, chemical vapors, or even coal dust. A diesel will burn
diesel No.2, as well as a wide range of similar fuels, such as kero, JP,
home heating oil. Further, it will run on CNG/Propane/fuel vapor, or any
liquid fuel that could be made to lubricate the injection system.
Again, you are simply talking out your ass.
Join www.devilbrad.com and find out what free exchange of info is all about.
The reason they did not have them is because they played the fuel card
too claiming sulpher in fuel would negate emission control and they
might not have added increased restriction now had not Detriot
exploited this loophole for profit.
You are mistaken here. Diesel have always been low on HC and CO but a
lost cause with NOx (up to 20 times worse than gas at times) because
there was no NOx limit on them. Also what in misleading about diesel
emissions is that they move a LOT more air through them so say 30 PPM
or HC on them is actually a lot higher than 30 PPM on a gas motor and
the higher air flow dilutes the PPM but not GPM (Grams Per Mile). They
have also had a long running battle with suspended particulates and
will it is improving it is a polutent that is not a problem with a gas
motor. If diesel had been follow same rules as gas motors have for
year they would no be in wide use in SUV's today because of the cost
This is highly debatedable because around here anyway, used one are
not selling well nor are new ones. Also given incentive on new truck a
few year old diesel is no a asset at trade in. I have a friend that
has a 2005 that he paided 45K for that is loaded but he is tired of
living with it and its payment and the savings that never materialized
as want to get rid of it but they will not even give him 25K for it
and it is cherry with only 30K miles on it. (because peopleare buy
cheaper gas trucks new here) So you theory on you get more is highly
False, diesel filters generally cost more (and do not foget fuel
filter changes too) and it takes a lot more oil in crankcase too so
you can change oil even more often in a gas motor than diesl and still
pay less. Next on plugs and wires, well they can last 50 to 100 K any
the money you saved on oil change will easily pay for this and they
are real easy and cheap to fix. When you diesel has problems (like
injectors and such) out of warranty you will cry when you foot the
bill. I know of a guy around here last year that blew a cummins in a
05 dodge from boosting it and dealer would not cover warranty it
because of abuse and it cost him 25 grand to fix!!!!! (he has about 70
grand now in a 2 year old truck that is worth maybe 30 if his is
lucky, he saved a lot of money here huh) You could blow several gas
motors for that price. If diesel were not so expensive to buy and
repair it could be differnt but I do not want a truck that it can cost
more to repair motor than truck is worth when it is not very old.
Boy are you full of it.and what does a RPM limiter have to do with
this as gas motor have them too? BTW, home heating oil is number two
diesel without road tax (I heat with it) so this is not new fuel and
sure you can run kero but it is from same fuel stock and has less BTU
too and it is not a alternate fuel either and same with JP4as they are
ALL petro based. You run a diesel on gas you will blow it up from
detonation real quick and while you can use very limited LPG or CNG
injection to reduce emissions you cannot run it on it alone.
They only one talking out their arse on this is you because you let
your ego talk before you get facts straight. - "Engage your brain to
look are the facts before you engage your mouth or keyboard"
Sort of (same as) back in the 70's when the available fuel would
have poisoned catalytic converters.
There is a NOx limit on your truck, but you ignore it.
The federal emissions test procedure only measures in grams per
mile. Your point?
Since I know for a fact that none of this is up to you, how do
you know for certain?
Your frustrations do not necessarily project onto the entirety of
the automotive industry.
IOW's, forget what your inflated ego is telling you.
Okay, so your area is in a recession. So, buy a tin cup with
some pencils in it.
And a comparable truck with a gasoline engine is bringing how much
No, debate. There are lots of people who don't know the
difference between price and value.
Sort of like how you don't know the difference between chicken
salad and chicken crap.
My cost on a NAPA gold oil filter to fit a 06 Cummins is $7.70
My cost on a NAPA gold oil filter to fit a 06 6.0 Vortec is $5.88
Fuel filter Cummins $13.85
Fuel filter Vortec $13.66
Thing is; I know I won't have to battle rotten fuel lines on the
Cummins when it's time to change.
And you think that is a bad thing?
Again, you only know price, not value.
Or they don't and now you're buying new catalytic converters for
You must buy crap plugs and wires. explains why you have to jack
the ignition timing to get it to run half way decent...
Yeah, like GM never has problems with their injectors...
There's a guy in Indianapolis who's getting rich off of them!
DUH! Don't blow the engine, problem eliminated.
Good god, you're a Gomer!
Ignorant dolt, he said "auto shut down device" NOT 'rev limiter.'
(he's crackin me up I tell ya!)
You just LOVE to see yourself type, don't you?
Says the guy who thinks a diesel emergency shut down is the same
thing as a rev limiter.
Off to Google ya go Snofart!
how much do you pay for your oil filters and gas filters (yes gasoline
vehicles have fuel filters too)?
as far as your amount of oil...lets look at some examples.....
my grandmothers f-150 holds 6 quarts changed every 3,000 miles (that's 12
quarts every 6,000 mind you plus the additional filter for the second
my old 96 s10 held 5 quarts also changed every 3,000 (10 quarts in 6,000)
my 86 d100 also 5 every 3,000 (do we really need to keep the 6,000 figure
my 99 2500 v10 held 8 quarts every 3,000 (hmmm that's 16 quarts every
and the 05 Cummins you despise so much??? 11 quarts every 7,500 miles
looks to me that the gas burner best case scenario nearly ties the diesel
and for the most part exceeds the diesel oil requirement.
by the way, the Fleetguard oil filter (that's a Cummins filter mind you)
and the fuel filter is $11.95 hardly a bank breaker....
now just curious, what's your oil and fuel filters cost you?? i could call
the local parts house and find out if ya REALLY need me to.
Hydrocarbons and CO were the two worst for the gassers, and were far worse
than the diesel, thus negating the advantage in NO2.
Actually, any engine only moves the displaced volume through on any given
two revolutions for a four stroke engine. As such, my Cummins 5.9 moves the
same amount of air as the 360 (5.9) gasoline engine. What confuses you is
that you think the gasser is moving less A/F mixture because its not at WOT.
Fact is, a diesel burns far less than all of the O2 in the cylinder unless
its at WOT. As such, PPM is exactly what it says it is, PPM, and not some
fraction thereof because you think its wrong.
More utter and total bullshit. Diesel engines are far more efficient simply
because of the BTU content of the fuel alone. Factor in the lower RPMs, and
the engine design, and the diesle engine is far superior. Want proof? What
is the overwhelming fuel of choice for large OTR trucks? Hint: despite your
absurd beliefs, its not gasoline.
Sorry, its not highly debatable. Dodge 2000MY, 2500 QC SWB, 80,000,
excellent condition, trade in value:
Diesel $11,200, 5.9/360 V8, $7,150, 8.0/488 V10, $7,075 (source:
Check any diesel truck, and you'll find that they sell for more, even used.
Um, no. Check Kelley, Edmunds, NADA, whichever...
My oil filter costs me $7 on the truck, $6 on the 2.2 turbo. Fuel filter is
about the same cost on both.
Wrong. I use 12 quarts in the truck, and run 2/3 times as far as the car on
5quarts. Its about even.
False. I don't care who told you that plugs will last 50k, they will NOT.
I've seen cars RUN with the plugs that old, but they are less than peak
efficiency and usually have problems. Plug wires are junk at 50K unless
routed well. Even so, in the lifetime of my Cummins, using your rate of
replacement, I'd go through four sets of plugs and wires on a gasser. Thats
about $100 a pop, for a savings of $400... assuming I left things go as long
as you do.
Um, no. True, the parts cost more, but they also have a higher reliability
rate... at least in the Cummins.
Thats an example of stupidity, not a costly engine. (BTW, I don't believe
for a second it cost $25K, since the engine new, in a crate is about $7000,
short blocks are even less)
Well, when you're an asshole, you tend to spend money above and beyond
what's necessary for the rest of us.
Well, lets look at this for a second.... If my Cummins goes the 450k that
its supposed to before a major repair, I'd have used three (maybe four)
gasoline engines in that time. At $800 for a long block, thats $2400-$3200.
Labor... probably equal to that..... so a grand total of about $5000, maybe
more. And the engine option only cos me $3800. Looks like I saved $1200 by
purchasing a diesel.
Try not blowing them up, they cost less that way.
Obviously, you don't understand what the rev limiter I described is for.
So all the fuels I mentioned will work in a diesel, by your admission.
Sage advice that you would be wise to heed.
Join www.devilbrad.com and find out what free exchange of info is all about.
diesels have come a long way since the 80's.. they're using EGR
systems, electronic controlled fuel injection, dual variable turbos,
and a slue of other tricks to make them run cleaner. All of the same
tricks would apply to engines used in the automotive industry.. right
up to the particulate collectors. IH was claiming that by 2010 their
engine will produce cleaner air coming out of their engines than what
went into them.
Strange statement coming from someone who has bragged on numerous
occasions that he has the ignition timing jacked up on his gas
Your above statement should read; 'I hate engine that are dirty
and smelly at times unless it fits my personal agenda.'
Name one emissions component in current use that hampers a
gasoline fueled engines performance or driveability.
Fact is; it is emissions regulations that forced technology
forward to the point that driveability and reliability today
couldn't even have been dreamed of pre-emissions control or even
25 years ago.
My guess is; they'll do it before you do.
Price out a spark plug for a 5 valve Triton engine lately?
Last time I checked, they were $29.00. Multiply by 8, add labor.
Let's not forget their habit for eating ignition coils times
You've always thought "otherwise", that's what makes you the
Well, I like my diesel 2002 Jetta TDI. Get 37 mpg around town like
clockwork and 44 or so on the highway. Not bad for an automatic. Those
with manual transmission often get over 50mpg on the highway. I like being
about to go 500+ miles and then fill up (the tank only holds 15 gallons).
This turbo diesel has lots of pickup can climb hills and pass without even
shifting down. I also like talking mileage and the dropped jaws when I fill
up next to the big diesel pickup trucks! (Don't hit me, my other vehicle is
a Dakota pickup.)
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