On Mon, 07 May 2007 21:32:20 +0000, JR rebooted the Etch-A-Sketch and
...then don't read posts with the term, "ford is nervous."
Oh, and please stop top posting. Though you may be using an inferior
newsreader on an inferior operating system, you can at least attempt to
be polite and bottom post.
One more thing - two dashes with a space afterwards will work better than
a commma for allowing newsreaders - even in Wintendo - to strip your
I don't read the posts with the term "Ford is nervous".
However I do have to mark them as read or delete them to make them
As a self appointed sophisticate of Usenet, you should well know that top or
bottom posting is up to the individual.
There is no convention, only preference.
> I don't read the posts with the term "Ford is nervous".
> However I do have to mark them as read or delete them to make them
Each post needs it? I can mark a thread "Ignore Thread" and it's done.
> As a self appointed sophisticate of Usenet, you should well know that
> bottom posting is up to the individual.
> There is no convention, only preference.
See "2.3 Why should I place my response below the quoted text?"
Make friends with a few animals. Then you will become a cheerful man
once more and nothing will be able to trouble you. -- Albert Einstein
Sure they would have. If they didn't, they would basically be admitting
that they were supplying Ford with a defective engine and that would damage
their reputation even worse then it already is. You can't put a price on
Now you are assuming that even if they win that they would get the full
dollar amount. Ford will not worry about this until they lose and all of
their appeals are done.
Hahahahaha, now that was funny. This kind of thing happens all of the time.
Perhaps you should read some of the financial papers every now and then.
Thank you for supporting my prior point. Navistar is suing for their
reputation, especially since they already lost one when they stopped
supplying engines and were forced to resume.
How will an adverse judgment hurt Ford besides the money?
And that is the key word, "so far".
If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving
As I understand the situation, the vast majority of the 6.0L problems have
nothing to do with Navistar's basic engine. It's the Ford specified
modifications, including the variable vane turbo that is crashing.
The Navistar version of the engine has been around for a while and is a
"non-event" engine, meaning no significant problems.
The bigger problem is injector troubles, they leak and dilute the
crankcase oil. There has been a lot of blown engines over this. I
heard of one blown form this when it was 3 weeks old.
I do know that Ford raise the standard for the acceptable level of
fuel in oil from the industry standard of about 2% to about 9% on the
6.0 because of leaky injectors. I do not know if this was Fords or
Ford may have made some adjustments to the software or hardware that
controls the vgt. jacking around with only effects the performance of
the engine. The variable geometry part of the turbo isn't all THAT
complicated since all they are doing is varing the amount of boost it
can supply to the intake so it doesn't overcome the flow of exhaust
from the egr side. it's no more complicated than opening or closing
the vents on your dashboard to restrict the flow of air out of them.
I've seen these engines come into my shop for a routine service, and
leave the shop misfiring. bad injectors have been a chronic problem
with the engine.
the engine started showing up in Fords almost as fast as they cooled
off the first block casting for the first engines.
I am well aware of what they are suing for. The question is, who actually
breached the contract.
And when Navistar signed the contract, they agreed to provide reliable
engines to Ford and they also appear not to have done so.
Unless Navistar can somehow prove this and I doubt that they can, Ford still
has a good case. AFAIK, Ford didn't stop paying untill Navistar stopped
I doubt very much that Ford was restricted on when it could begin design of
a new engine, only on implementation on specific vehicles. As for
replacement, Ford could simply claim that they were looking to replace them
ahead of schedule due to the excessive failure rates of the Navistar engines
and the damage it was causing to sales and their reputation.
And with the excessive failure rate, could you blame them? Navistar would
have to prove that their engines were everything that they promised and as
said before, I doubt that they can.
While a diesel option helped to make them a top contender, it was not the
Navistar name, just the engine type along with the strength and durability
of the vehicles for the price. If it was just the engine, then Dodge should
be No 1 by a wide margine as the Cummins is simply better than the rest so
far and again, by a wide margine.
I never said that it was and we are talking about two totally different
things now. The F150 is a completely different truck from the SuperDuty
I agree that Ford has staked some of its sales on the PSD but it takes more
than just an engine to get the sales or as I said before, Dodge would be #1
in the medium duty P/U's.
LOL, understatement of the year.
Sure it would and that is the reason that Ford is looking to remove them 2
years ahead of schedule but again, while the engine can stop sales if it is
a POS or thought of as one, it takes more than just a good engine to get
I doubt it. They will just appeal it as will Navistar and this will go on
Actually, the biggest tends to take the largest hit but not always,
especially with vehicles and brand loyalty.
Not yet but as we have seen, Toyota looks toward the future unlike the
American ones. If there is money to be made there, that is where they will
Don't bet on that. Even if Navistar happens to win, it is a one shot deal
and then it's over, not to mention the appeals that could drag it out for
years. Every truck that Toyota happens to sell is a loss for one of the
"big three" and since most of their profits come from their truck and SUV
sales, it is more significant than you might imagine. Then in order to
reclaim those sales they have to do research to see why they lost them to
Toyota, possibly make design changes to re-attract those customers and at a
minimum wage an advertising war to show how they are better than Toyota.
When you add all this up, the cost are huge and well exceed just the cost of
the sale and this happens every year. Of course, Toyota will see this and
do the same thing so on it goes. BTW, you might want to use a different
term than the "big three" since IIRC, Toyota is now #2 and soon to be #1 if
not there already.
Then you would be mistaken.
If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving
If there is a question, as you state, then its not as cut and dried as you
Exactly, so its not like you claimed at all in your previous post.
Navistar certainly should be able to prove it, given that they likely had a
Ford on site to figure out the warranty problems.
Navistar seems to feel that Ford was restricted in its timetable. I'm
certain Ford will claim exactly what you say. However, if the contract
contains a clause prohibiting engine development, then its open to
Not at all. Ford certainly will do what it feels it has to in order to
protect itself. Problem is, what will the contract dictate? As to Navistar,
they must have something, or the dollar figure wouldn't be that high.
Navistar's name is all over the thing, so Navistar has a vested interest in
keeping their name clear. The name is long recognized as big in the heavy
equipment sector. As such, Ford's rep isn't the only thing that made the
F250/350 a popular product.
Much as you and I know it, many people prefer a V8, or simply don't know
enough, to know which engine is better.
Right..... hence the lawsuit by Navistar, since they depend on their name
and rep to promote engines, not just trucks.
Exactly.... all the while taking a hit on the legal fees until its settled.
Last I heard, Toyota wasn't yet covering their investment on the new plant
What you aren't seeing is that a company can scale back on expenditure to
accomodate a market shift. In a direct loss, such as the lawsuit would
bring, its a drain without any means to compensate for the loss.
See above. Market shift and legal loss are totally different in the type of
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