I figure this will go well into the weekend and the chuckle's will multiply.
He maintains he's not reading anything I post, so I'll be held blameless. On
the other hand you bunch of bigoted, c-bashing, assaulting jackals will be
subject to all his wrath and indignation.
Personally, I have no problem with taxing denominations, fyi. I do have
problems with those that think they can re-write the Bible and the basic
interpretations TO SUIT THEMSELVES as you are doing and I AM INTOLERANT IN
THAT RESPECT as a true, Bible believing Christian should be.
And what you and others are trying to do is convince me that a book that is
99.5% accurate when compared to the oldest copies is wrong.
And finally, when did I give you the right to question my beliefs, in
effect, telling me they are wrong? One of us beleives the other wrong or
there would be no "questioning". I merely gave the verses YOU asked for and
you took it on yourself to tell me that they don't mean what I understand
them to mean
So, you are on a vendetta for them. First, you aren't the one to decide for
others if they want this treatment which is still so vague that no one
really knows if it will do what is hoped. A Champion for an Unknown cause,
Guess agian, Scott. "Fundy" believers are growing in numbers, not dropping.
It's the simplicity: if it's not in the Bible, then it's not taught.
Adam and Eve, in the Garden of Eden by commiting the original Sin. Until
that time, there was no death, no disease, not sin, no pain in childbirth.
Science, by definition, is knowledge, not the act of solving mysteries.
That is experimentation.
Why do you limit God? He is Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent, Holy,
Eternal, and Sovereign http://www.carm.org/doctrine/basicdoc.htm
Is it? It's the only version that is completely translated from the ancient
manuscripts with all the words intact. The RSV is well known for it's
liberties with interpretation of Scripture.
And who are you to do so? Who are you that I should listen to you over God's
Word? You've become another one that has decided to tell me how I should
live as a Christian. I will continue to be intolerant of those that seek to
water down the Scriptures and turn Jesus into a mere mortal.
"I'd rather live assuming there is a God, only to die and find out there
isn't, then to live my whole life assuming there isn't a God, only to find
out there is." (Peter Barry)
The problem is, you assume I'm trying to interpret the Bible. I'm not. I'm
saying that your references to the beginning of life are not that at all,
but instead are references to the beginning of the human spirit. A BIG
difference, because, as you pointed out, the Bible is not a scientific
reference. As such, no scientific distinctions will be made within its
But one step further, my point is not the abortion/beginning of life issue.
Indeed, I am asking that the abortion issue be held as distinctly different
from the stem cell issue. This is because, scientifically, they ARE
Well, I have to say this is amusing. You just wrote in a previous post that
the 1611 KJV was more accurate than the RSV Bible. Now, if there is that
much difference in 400 years, then could it be possible that the KJV is a
bit skewed as well? No matter, its not the point I'm trying to make.
"The question then becomes, "When does this humanness begin?" I cannot give
an authoritative answer."
Says it all for me.
"When we stay blind to truth, we abide in lies. The truth is that the baby
is there, in need of nourishment, protection, and love. Don't kill it
because it is inconvenient. Be responsible for your actions and don't make
the little ones pay for your sins."
A clear reference to those who use abortion as a means of birth control.
I've already stated that I don't think abortion is a good practice. You did
read that part of my reply in my initial post, did you not?
"The issue, the main issue, that you have avoided and continue to avoid
deals with what the life in the womb actually is, human or not."
Thats terrific, but I'm not talking about cells in the womb.
"When that negativity takes root, it is far easier to destroy that life.
This is why it is so important to use proper terms when discussing such a
I agree wholeheartedly. Its time the religious conservatives called stem
cell research exactly that, and not "that sounds like abortion to me".
"Second, whether or not a baby is "unwanted" is irrelevant. Just because a
human being is not wanted, does not mean that the human being has no value
or should be killed. In addition, huge numbers of families who are willing
to adopt those "unwanted" babies. So, those babies are wanted, not
By relegating stem cell research to the negativity accorded abortion, you
effectively say that a cure for all those affected by the various genetic
and cell related maladies is unwanted. It then follows that a value of
something less than full human is assigned to those who have those maladies,
because we fail to use the knowledge and skills we have to better the human
race as a whole.
I haven't questioned your beliefs, Budd. I have said repeatedly that the
issue you are debating is not the issue I wrote to Senator Santorum about.
Sadly, you are among many religious conservatives who have confused the
issues and are quite clearly lacking in facts.
The verses you noted do not deal with the beginning of human life. As you
said, that is a scientific subject, and the Bible has no scientific notation
in it. As such, it is wrong to quote scripture to answer a medical question.
The question at hand is a medical and scientific one, not one of morality
and murder, as you and the Senator have assumed.
A vendetta? Lets go back to the URL mentioning negative connotations to
words. What I am doing is not a vendetta, it is a visible and loudmouthed
support for research that could solve millions of human kinds problems.
Thats not a vendetta... it might be a crusade, or a rally, or many other
things, but its not a vendetta.
Then, you claim I cannot choose for others in these treatments. I don't even
pretend to do so; I merely ask that these choices be available to those who
DO choose to have their circumstances improved. You say I am a champion for
an unknown cause.... indeed, even if I am, it is a necessary task, for if it
is as unknown as you claim (which I doubt) it should be known better.
Further, it should be known on its merits, not the heap of propaganda which
you have heaped upon it.
Ah yes, a return to the dark ages is long overdue.
Without meaning to be personal, but doing so anyway, do you think it follows
your above statement to say that heart surgery and cardio science should not
be taught? I am very glad that there was a medical answer to your, and
other's, heart problems. Yet you and the fundimentalist religious crowd
would stand in the way for the same progress to be made on my brother's
And again, I ask, who created all of that? Who caused there to be disease,
sin death, and pain?
Science, by definition, uses the scientific method, which is a method of
solving the mysteries of life itself.
I haven't limited him. In denying research on stem cells, you've denied use
of knowledge of His creation. Is that not limiting God? If God is all that
you say above, would it not follow that He ALLOWED us to have the knowledge
to conduct this research? By saying that God is infallible, you open the
door to all His decisions, including those dealing with scientific
knowledge, to be called perfect. You cannot say on one hand that God
doesn't want us to do these things, and on the other say that God has the
power to stop us and cut off our knowledge that allows us to do these
things. Further, if you believe that all beings are known to God before
they exist in physical form, and that He knows what their purpose is, and
what they will do in life, "predetermination" as its called, then you must
also believe that God intended that mankind benefit from this knowledge and
these individuals skills.
I wil lalways question anyone's right to impose their religious beliefs upon
me and others that do not want those beliefs. If you believe that each man
has certain inalienable Rights, and that those Rights were handed down by
God, then you know that you must abide by God's Word on that as well.
I have not told you how to live as a Christian, I have merely asked that you
and others see the difference between abortion and stem cell research.
Jesus WAS mere mortal, that was the POINT in sending Him here as God's only
Son. If God has sent him as a wandering spirit apparition, nothing would
have been gained. If Jesus were not a mortal being, He could not have DIED.
I'd rather live knowing God gave us knowledge to use, than to live assuming
knowledge was only God's to use.
Join www.devilbrad.com and find out what free exchange of info is all about.
So you can't be friends with anyone who doesn't believe what you believe?
My, what a lonely, secluded life you must lead.
I don't see where he did that, Budd. Nowhere did I see him say, "you need
to believe what I believe". I do, however, see that coming from you.
I guess I'm on the "naughty, not nice" list too, since I happen to agree
with Max's point of view on this subject. So be it... know that I still
think you're a good guy, regardless of the contempt you may have for me and
my dispicable beliefs and values.
Well, Tom, if you're going to sit there and tell me how despicable I am for
not supporting stem cell research, then maybe you are.
My point is simple, my beliefs are not the topic, my beliefs are not open to
suggestion or correction, and no one has the right to tell me my opinions
are wrong because of what I believe and I'll killfile anyone that thinks
they can tell me those things. I do not have to take that stuff from anyone
and I'm tired of being insulted because I don't believe as the crowd thinks
I should and no one, so far, has been responsible enough to accept the fact
they have insulted me and apologize, they just say I have to be more
Think of it like this, if I'm insulted enough to killfile a guy I've
respected and called "friend" for close to ten years, what does that say
about what's going on? That I'm being hardnosed? Yep and will continue to
be. That others are being insulting about my beliefs? Yep, and some do it
for the fun of picking on me.
But it also means enough is enough. It's time for someone else to be
"tolerant" and responsible.
It does, until you try to force your beliefs on others. What do you call it
when you tell someone that because of their beliefs they are: crazy, senile,
stupid, intolerant, sub-human, despicable, etc. and they need to be like
yourself to be acceptable?
Contrary to what has been said to the point of idiocy, I have not told
anyone to become a Fundamental Believer like myself, nor have I insisted
such. I have told about differences between the faiths of others and my
own, corrected some misinterpretations / misquotes, in hopes that maybe,
with that knowledge, some would be learn I am not the bad guy.
Those hopes died on the vine because too many were already biased against me
for other reasons in some cases, and my beliefs just proved them right, in
their own mind as determined by their bigotries.
____I-M-H-O___, you cannot own that book and be a Christian. But that is my
As for the Catholic faith, I erred in accidentally posting to the group my
reply to your question and I apologized.
If the Catholic Church is not meeting your needs, spiritually, then please
remember, one friend to another, that there are many denominations. Some are
closer to the written Word than others. My suggestion, as your friend, the
denomination that will be the least critical of your past beliefs and yet
also one that is very close to the Scriptures is the Evangelical Free
Church. Don't hesitate to interview a pastor as you would an employee. If he
objects, then try somewhere else as a pastor is a servant, not a king. Ask
what is believed and what is taught.
If Max had looked a bit more carefully at my replies, he would have seen I
had objections to only stem cell research requiring human embryonic or
zygote cells. I have no objection to adult stem cell research.
As for my beliefs, do I not have the right to say what my beliefs are
concerning a topic? That was my original reply, and BOOM!!!! I'm in trouble
for being honest, being a friend and sharing my beliefs on a matter, AS THE
ORIGINAL POSTER REQUESTED PEOPLE TO DO.
Or am I to just shut the heck up and go away? Just get rid of the
trouble-making crazy old fart Christian, he's worthless anyway. That'll make
several very happy.
I can if you do it to me first. It's called "defending my faith". Again,
until I was told I was despicable for not condoning the research and thereby
being guilty of "killing untold millions of people" ( that was the
implication as I understood it) because I believe the Bible, AS IT IS
WRITTEN, I had no problems with the topic. But it's been decided by many
that because I believe as I do, I am automatically the bad guy.
Stop and think back some time ago when you had a very important personal
decision to make and you emailed me for advice. Was that advice the advice
of someone that cared about you as a friend or the kind of advice someone
that doesn't care about others gives? I used the Bible's teachings to help
me advise you, my friend.
I do not know of any because they cluster in towns like Colorado City, AZ.
Yes, Utah is predominately Mormon, but Moab, in a parallel with the Moab of
Bible, isn't mostly Mormon and it drives the LDS hierarchy crazy.
How do I get along with them? If they don't want to hear about my beliefs,
they shut up about theirs and keep the missionaries away. I have neighbors
around me that are Mormon, Catholic, and Jehovah's Witness. We have a quiet
little cul-de-sac with no religious tension. We live around and help each
Max crossed the line when he accused me of not caring about others. I
understand the concerns you, he and others have. Try to remember; Polio is a
neurological disease, Diabetes is inherited (mostly) and the most probable
cause for my heart condition which can also be inherited. So, I have health
troubles that stem cell research might someday help, BUT I DO NOT WANT A
SINGLE LIFE OF ANY AGE SHED TO DEVELOP THAT TREATMENT FOR ME. THAT IS MY
POSITION ON THE MATTER. But I also do not place my faith in fallible man.
Remember that ruckus in the news about that Korean researcher that LIED
about results? How do you know what results they still have are correct?
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