# 600 mile range Federal law needed

During the evacuation of New Orleans, on-board fuel supply and on-road fuel availability was of considerable importance and worry to car travellers.
It is feasible to build cars with fuel tanks of sufficient capacity to achieve 600 range with reserve.
Car makers consider 325 miles with reserve good enough. It isn't. Since car makers won't build cars this way, we need to force it down their throats with a Federal Law.
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ya but at what point do you stop paying to transport gas around. 1st rule of fuel economy drive light on the peddle and make sure the car is light. I can't recall how much 1 gallon of gas weighs in at. nor can I recall how many lbs of weight removal = increase of available horsepower. point being is driving around with nearly 2 times the amount of fuel = 2 times the amount of weight there for fuel economy would suffer. and would ppl pay \$60 to fill a dodge neon. nope better off driving with 1/2 tank just like it is now.

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Nomen Nescio wrote: "During the evacuation of New Orleans, on-board fuel supply and on-road fuel availability was of considerable importance and worry to car travellers. It is feasible to build cars with fuel tanks of sufficient capacity to achieve 600 range with reserve.
Car makers consider 325 miles with reserve good enough. It isn't. Since car makers won't build cars this way, we need to force it down their throats with a Federal Law."
The problem is not how far a car can travel without refueling. The problem is many stations lost electrical power to run the pumps. I drove home to the area from Hots Springs, Arkansas. I anticipated having fuel problems once I arrived home. I started looking for a gas station in Vicksburg , MS and was not able to find one that had power. Got to Natchez, MS and found power on a one station and a line of cars 1/2 mile long trying to fuel up. Got to the second car in line and the power went out. I then head West down US 84 until I found a gas station with power. Only fuel they had left was the premium.
Made it home to find all the electricity was off and no one was selling fuel. The next day power was restored In a neighboring town and I waited 2.5 miles to fuel up. They owner of the station was handing out water to customers in line. He told me that he was able to secure two truck loads of fuel and that was it.
Many gas stations are not open even though they have power because they can't get the fuel.
Nine refineries have been shut down in the affected areas. Gasoline supplies will be limited until all of them get back on line.The following facilities should be starting up Shell Chemical Mobile, Alabama, Motiva Convent, LA, Marathon Oil Garyville, LA. The following facilities will be starting up as soon as wind damage can be repaired Motiva/ Shell Chemical Norco, LA, Valerio, Norco, LA. The following will need extensive repair due to wind and flood damage: Conoco-Phillips in Belle Chase, LA, Chalmette Refining LLC Chalmette, LA, Shell Chemical St Rose, LA and Murphy Oil U.S.A. Inc. Meraux, LA.
Gasoline will be in short supply across the nation until the refineries start back up and at full operation. At present, Louisiana lost the refining capacity of 1,470703 barrels of crude a day. Normally Louisiana could refine 2,772,723 barrels of crude a day. So over half the refining capacity has been affected by the storm. See the facts at http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/state/la.html
Offshore production will be cranking back up for several deepwater rigs. As of 09-02-05 88 percent of the oil production in the Gulf of Mexico has been shutdown. 20 platform or rigs are missing. One pipeline is damaged. See the facts at http://www.ocsbbs.com/Hurricane_katrina_evacuation_stats_Sept_2_2005.htm The LOOP offshore oil facality has been shutdown due to damage to on shore power grid needed for the LOOP to operate. Repairs are in progress.
The refineries that are operating will be operating on short supplies and will not be running at full rates due to the lack of crude even with the strategic reserve.
Sarge
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I don't believe this is the case across the nation. Here in Oregon gasoline prices have remained flat for the last month or two. I strongly suspect that the oil companies don't like to pay a lot of money to ship gasoline all over the place and that a lot more of it is refined and sold locally than most people would believe, and that the oil companies will admit. I also strongly suspect, going on what I know about how business is conducted in LA, that a lot of the oil companies down there are giving wildly exaggerated estimates of how short the fuel supplies are going to be over the next weeks and months, simply in an effort to keep fuel prices high to they can profiteer. Given that the oil companies own the current President, you won't see any tangible effort to stop the price gouging from the White House either, I am sorry to say.
Of course, I also know that saying all this is like rubbing salt in the wound to the people in that area that are reading this. But you should know that the media is lying to you, gas prices in the rest of the country haven't spiked like a Super Bowl football on a touchdown. (at least, not here) I just bought gas at a 76 station on Friday at \$2.66 a gallon and it was within 7 cents a gallon of that a month ago.
Consider also that summer is over and people are mostly pretty much finished with their summer vacation driving, and gasoline sales during this period go down anyway.
Ted
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"Ted Mittelstaedt" wrote: "I don't believe this is the case across the nation. Here in Oregon gasoline prices have remained flat for the last month or two. I strongly suspect that the oil companies don't like to pay a lot of money to ship gasoline all over the place and that a lot more of it is refined and sold locally than most people would believe, and that the oil companies will admit. I also strongly suspect, going on what I know about how business is conducted in LA, that a lot of the oil companies down there are giving wildly exaggerated estimates of how short the fuel supplies are going to be over the next weeks and months, simply in an effort to keep fuel prices high to they can profiteer. Given that the oil companies own the current President, you won't see any tangible effort to stop the price gouging from the White House either, I am sorry to say. Of course, I also know that saying all this is like rubbing salt in the wound to the people in that area that are reading this. But you should know that the media is lying to you, gas prices in the rest of the country haven't spiked like a Super Bowl football on a touchdown. (at least, not here) I just bought gas at a 76 station on Friday at \$2.66 a gallon and it was within 7 cents a gallon of that a month ago. Consider also that summer is over and people are mostly pretty much finished with their summer vacation driving, and gasoline sales during this period go down anyway."
And you don't believe 9 less refineries producing gasoline will affect the price? Most of the gasoline refined in Louisiana does not supply your area in Oregon. The pipelines from this area supplies mostly the Northeast and immediate area. Gasoline supplied to the West Coast is supplied by plants in California 21 (refineries 2,017,401 barrels a day) and Washington (5 refineries 616,150 barrels a day). Louisiana refine 2,772,723 barrels a day, which is greater then both California and Washington together. So tell me how the supply of gasoline is not going to be reduced?
The last new refinery built was in 1976 in Garyville, LA. It is owned by Marathon Oil. We need more refineries to reduce the cost of gasoline or we need to reduce our need. Gasoline cannot be stored long term like crude oil. Several of your major oil companies have announced a price freeze to its jobbers on the cost of gasoline in the affected states of Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama.
Texas 27 refineries and 4,627,611 barrels per day cannot increase production of gasoline they are all running at capacity. Mississippi 4 refineries at 364,800 barrels per day cannot increase production. Their biggest refinery in Pascagoula @ 325,000 BCD is shutdown due to damage.
There are other states that refine oil. Texas, Louisiana and California are the largest. The US gasoline consumption is about 9.0 million bbl/d. Lost of production from 8 to 9 refineries has to hurt the supply.
Before the Hurricane I paid 2.49 for a gallon of gasoline regular. Yesterday I filled up my truck and paid 2.54 a gallon. The biggest problem is finding stations that have fuel since the entire area of Jefferson Parish, Orleans Parish, and St Tammany Parish have no electricity. The people that live in theses areas are now trying to get home to see what's left or living with friends or relatives in the metro area. My household has increased by 2 and my sisters by 4 and my parents by 6 since our relatives have no place to go home or no electricity where they live at. My mother's home looks like a used car lot with 8 extra cars in her driveway.
Sarge
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Not across the nation like you said initially.

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Obviously LA and MS and the states served by those refineries are going to be RFed (Royally F..ked) I never said they wern't. In fact if you reread my post you will see that I said the oil companies are overemphasizing the shortage in the press precisely so they can gouge the public and people will accept it and say "Oh it's just the storm"
You are missing the fact that many tens of thousands of cars got flooded out and will be unusable, thus their owners won't be buying fuel. In fact the city of New Orleans won't see normal street traffic for at least 6 months, it will take them that long to get the dikes patched and the city pumped out - assuming anyone still wants to live there after the looters have finished stealing everything of value and burning the city to the ground. And a lot of other Gulf Coast states are going to see a lot of economic problems and people who are thrown off work onto unemployment because of it are going to be riding the bus not paying high gas prices.
Nobody knows what the DEMAND of gas will do. If it is SIGNIFICANTLY lower then it won't matter that a lot of refinery capacity got knocked offline. And I think it will be. I think the oil companies have very much underestimated how much people will be willing to carpool, use mass transit, and such in order to avoid getting gouged, for the short term anyhow. The United States population does an enormous amount of unnecessary pleasure driving every day, there is a LOT of cushion there which can absorb a fuel shortage.

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With all those extra people your families have lots of opportunity to pool driving, so as a whole all your fuel usage is going to go down quite a bit. And this will be repeated thousandfold across those states. It will work out, you will see. In fact, this is EXACTLY how the free market is supposed to work as our friend Mr. Putney will be happy to tell you. The shortages will produce a price spike which will curtail the demand to the point that demand once again is no more than the supply. Then as that demand curtailment gets to be a habit, gets "institutionalized" as it were, and more supply comes on line, there will be an oversupply and the price will crash - until that is, everyone with flooded out cars gets their insurance money and runs out and buys new ones which they then want to drive all over the place. ;-)
Ted
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1 of 2 things will happen when the cars dry out....
Insurance companies have the 'nads to say : "You didn't see the storm coming, nor did you take advantage of the local gov't warning to leave due to the severity of the storm? The loss of your car was 100% preventable......... Claim Denied"
or
They wuss out and EVERYONE will get soaked with higher premiums for their vehicle insurance.
On a related note, a certain Mayor should be held personally and financially responsible for the loss of all those School Busses, as well as the losses (health and life) resulting from his decision not to use them to evacuate the town, because he called for Greyhound busses so his constituents would be able to leave in style.... And why exactly was the levee system neglected for the past 3 decades? The Army Corps of Engineers supposedly were stymied as to improving the system due to the KNOWLEDGE that they would not survive a cat 3 'cane???? This was NOT a failure in DC. What I learned from the Incident Command System class I took as a Fire Department officer was that FEMA relies on the LOCAL GOV'T following their predetermined emergency plan, which didn't happen. That's the stuff that keeps FEMA from being able to act. Under the ICS model, every entity up to the Feds has a predetermined function, within a specific chain of command. You can't break the chain, because of accountability issues.
ERIC GIRONDA
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>-------&nbsp; snip ---------</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR>be an oversupply and the price will crash - until that is, everyone with<BR>flooded<BR>out cars gets their insurance money and runs out and buys new ones which<BR>they then want to drive all over the place. ;-)<BR><BR>Ted</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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I know this is a foolish question... but is there any reason people are still responding to Nomen's mindless ravings?
--
Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605
Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002
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Joe Pfeiffer wrote:

Yes.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
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It is extra interesting to see Oregon gas prices are stable. In eastern Canada as soon as Katrina shut down the Gulf wells retail gas prices went up by 25 per cent (and Canada produces 100 per cent of what Canada produces -- although for cheapness western Canadian oil is exported to the USA and we import US oil in eastern Canada.
--
Don Phillipson
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Well... Oregon Fuel prices are NOT "Stable" !!!
Just before Katrina, #2 Diesel was around \$2.80 per gallon, it is now (as of Saturday) at \$3.15 per gallon. Gasoline has hovered right under these prices, rising right along with them...
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Heh - no I disagree - I have seen Diesel prices in Oregon rising long before this and gasoline prices are NOT coupled to them, and least not where I'm buying gas. Diesel is indeed quite higher than gas, and I'm sure that if any of those diesel owners are left who bought Diesel cars years ago thinking they would save money on fuel they are probably screaming now.
I typically buy gasoline in Washington County. I live in PDX and the prices with the city boundary appear to be at least 10-20 cents a gallon higher than right outside of it, such as in unincorporated Washington County (along US 26) and in East Multnomah county outside of Gresham.
Prices in the rest of the state are higher. Prices along I-5 through most of the state are gouging - it is asinine, there's gas stations along I-5 such as in Albany where they are 20 cents a gallon higher than if you drive a mile away from the interstate and buy gas at a station there. Prices along the coast are rediculous but they always have been rediculous.
Part of the problem in many parts of the state is after the Shell/Texaco merger that removed competition in many of the smaller towns. I still don't understand why the lame-ass Oregon Attorney General hasn't done something about it because there's lots of places in PDX where you have 2 Shell stations literally across the street from each other.
Ted
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prices
I don't know the PDX situation but here in california cities and counties may have their own additonal taxes on gasoline or may require special formulation all of which may result in markedly different prices as you move to and from their jurisdiction.
Howard
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Diesel & Gas prices in Oregon have been on the rise for quite a while, But they took a 30-50 cent jump since Katrina hit land. All my other cars run on gasoline, and the prices for regular gas though (most times) cheaper, have for the most part risen right along with the diesel. Today in McMinnville, the regular Gas was \$2.79 Diesel was \$3.10. In Yamhill, regular Gas was \$2.99 Super was \$3.15 & Diesel was \$3.11
I buy my diesel anywhere from Banks (north) to Brooks (south) and Yamhill (west) to Canby (east). Because I carry 59 gallons, I can price shop for quite a few miles. :-)
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Not in the Portland metro area.

Banks does not see the PDX-to-coast traffic as it's not right on US 26, everyone has filled their tanks long before going by there, that's a low-volume station.
Canby is not on a major arterial, most people use I-5 not 99E, once more it's low-volume
Most people buy fuel in Salem before hitting Brooks, it's low-volume
Yamhill you have got to be kidding, there's no major arterials out there, few people, a very low volume of gas sold, plus they are probably paying extra for hauling a tanker out on those roads.
All these are very small markets, and are remote, it is no wonder your seeing pricing rise - there's no competition. Those stations are pumping low volumes and they are already paying more for gasoline than the higher volume stations in Portland, and your seeing those station owners being opportunistic now.
McMinnville is closer to PDX which is why your not seeing that big a variance from the average PDX prices, there's too many people who already drive from there into the metro area via 99W. If you were to go another 15-20 minutes into Tigard you would see cheaper prices.
I'll see tomorrow what the 76 I usually buy from off US 26 is charging, on Friday it was 2.66 The stations along 26 are a lot higher volume than along 99W so they are buying a lot more gas at lower wholesale costs.
As I said, the Oregon attorney general needs to be shot for permitting the oil companies to violate the Sherman anti-trust act in most cities in Oregon after the last round of mergers. I guessed that sooner or later we would see gouging going on.
Ted
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Yes in the Portland metro area. You ought to look around before you make such statements. http://www.portlandgasprices.com /

I guess I should have specified, ALL the places in between too, Like Aurora, 3 stations right across the street from each other on I-5 (also a major truck refueling stop) Wilsonville, Tigard, Beaverton, Aloha, Hillsboro, Cornelius, Forest Grove, Clackamas, Milwaukee, Oak Grove, Portland, ETC. ETC. ETC.

FYI: I monitor Fuel prices quite closely, and Canby and Cornelius consistently have some of the lowest prices in the greater Portland area... http://www.oregongasprices.com / http://www.portlandgasprices.com /

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No, not in the Portland metro area - again.
Look at the site's chart here:
http://www.portlandgasprices.com/retail_price_chart.aspx
Note the average price 8/27 - 8/30 was 2.60
Look at today - the top 15 stations on the front page of the site are at 2.63 - 2.66.
Where is this price jump in the Portland metro area?
Your looking at their average price rise - the problem is that their average does not represent a real average of a price per gallon because the stations aren't reporting their volume.
Some of the low volume stations in PDX are using the hurricane as an excuse to gouge, that's all. 2 weeks ago the spread between high price and low price was much smaller. Now those low volume stations are skewing the average.
This is what they mean when they say statistics lie. We have a spread of 2.59 for the low and 3.15 for the high - a whopping 56 cent spread. The stations that are gouging 50 cents a gallon extra will get away with it for a few weeks then everyone will stop going to them and when they start losing money they will drop the price. 3 weeks ago I would guess that there was no 56 cent spread on that site.

Sigh. Go back to that website and start looking at the top 15 again. Let's see, Clackamas, Hillsboro, Portland, Beaverton Damascus, Linnton.

I would guess Not Anymore. I suspect your favorte stations are just using the hurricane as an excuse to gouge. We are going to see a lot of that I think.
Truth is I have been rather surprised to see this at certain stations - I've seen stations with a 10 cent difference in price right next to each other in the last week, so has my wife. Previously the biggest difference we have seen was 3 cents in these instances. And some of the stations that I've avoided over the last 6 months because they always ran 3-4 cents higher are now lower. For example the 76 right next to my house has always been 3 cents higher than the Shell down the road, now it's reversed.
I can understand fuel price gouging when there's fuel shortages but we don't have a shortage here, I've yet to see a gas station with a sign out saying they are out of gas.
Cool site though, I'll have to start reporting the stations I pass daily.
Ted
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FYI: Aurora and Brooks have the cheapest diesel 2.89 in Oregon today...
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There is only one reason for me to wish for a larger fuel tank: be able to cross the otherwise great state of Oregon without buying gas. Are you guys going to change that ridiculous 'no self serve' law in any foreseeable future? Is there anything genetically wrong with Oregon residents making them unable to stick a nozzle in their gas tank when they grow up past high school age? For goodness sake, find something productive to do for those 5000 kids 'employed' in your gas stations!

gasoline
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Happy Traveler wrote:

Isn't this or wasn't this the case also in NJ? Liberal union crap.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
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