Modern Tires Ruin the Roads

Dori A Schmetterling wrote:


Yes, that is quite odd. When I lived in England a couple of decades ago, I noticed that their roads were generally in better shape than those in the States. Also, they seemed to have much smooth approaches to their bridges, whereas it seems that ours always have a sag where the road has settled right before the bridge.
I suspect some has to do with climate differences, but I always wondered if there were some materials or techniques that were also making a difference that could be shared.
Matt
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Best practice means taking into account traffic and climatic conditions, of course. And axle loads.
The roads in hot regions needs to be different to those in cold. Particular problems arise when the temps fluctuate from -10 to +30 degC over the year, of course...
From my experience of driving around in different places (and from comments from that road engineer) I have no doubt things could be done better in many places.
DAS
For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
--
"Matt Whiting" < snipped-for-privacy@epix.net> wrote in message
news:10jif.3334$ snipped-for-privacy@news1.epix.net...
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Dori A Schmetterling wrote:

Dori - I see that your degree is not in English either. :) (ouch)
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
1) You're right (not Your right) (Chemistry, BTW.)
2) I, too, fall victim to the curse of e-mail/NGs. Taking no time to check properly...
DAS
For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
--
"Bill Putney" < snipped-for-privacy@kinez.net> wrote in message
news:dmcvlc$69i$ snipped-for-privacy@news.isdn.net...
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Dori A Schmetterling wrote:

Tar MacAdam - The beginnings of the modern paved road - named after John Loudon MacAdam - a Scot, from whom we get the word "tarmac".
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Maybe there is a bit of a not-invented-here mindset in Britain because of that.
However, you would think that, pooling the engineerng knowledge just five of the biggies -- USA, France, Germany, Britain, Italy (a pioneer of private motorways in Europe) -- we could do better.
DAS
For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
--
"Bill Putney" < snipped-for-privacy@kinez.net> wrote in message
news:dmcnl6$2sk$ snipped-for-privacy@news.isdn.net...
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Dori A Schmetterling wrote:

I agree, but I'm not sure there is a strong incentive to do better. The road building companies get paid by the mile, not by how good their product is, unlike most other companies. And they compete for work based primarily on price, not quality. I've always thought that "low bidder contracting" was stupid, but that is how things are done in the road building industry, at least in the USA. Maybe things are different in Europe.
If a construction company had to bid not only on the road construction, but also had to provide maintenance and repairs for the next 30 years, maybe things would get built better.
Matt
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

I like the construction contract requiring maintenance. However, to prevent companies from forming, bidding low and then folding before the maintenance bills came in perhaps having the whole process underwritten by an insurance co might not be too bad an idea to ensure there's somebody to sue.
I'd like to see a way to remove the politicians from the decision making process as well.
I'm in the UK at the moment where gas (Petrol?) is $5.88 US a US gallon, there's no real amount of ground frost, no blazing hot summers and the roads are coarse, slippery and quite rough and poorly maintained compared to what they once were when the fuel taxation level was much less.
The excuses given include land constraints, budget constraints, EU legislation, etc, etc. In the UK it's the politicians who are ruining the roads. (I won't even begin to talk about the London (tax) congestion charge.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
joe schmoe wrote:

Yes, you'd have to have a bond of some sort or maybe just hold the company principals personally liable even if their corporation folds! :-)

Yep, but that'll never happen as they control the money.
Matt
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
That's odd. In which bit of the UK are you? Ground frost (freezing temperature) is being reported from many parts of the country.
Road building/spending is not politically fashionable and politicians don't have the guts to stick with proper maintenance programmes, even, let alone building the many village bypasses that are sorely needed. Whenever there is a money shortage, first thing that goes is road money. I don't think EU legislation has anything to do with it. (From where did you pluck that one?).
Although I tend to agree with the thrust of your thinking I don't actually agree with all your details. Who says we don't get hot summers? In southern England it can get to 30 degrees and some roads may get a bit soft. Stupid, isn't it? Ok, we don't experience Nevada desert temps.
Actually, fuel taxation is not that high in real terms. Fuel is relatively cheaper than in the past, but I could not say by how much, especially as you did not specify a year or period. 2000? 1990? 1960?
And you should understand that UK taxes on motoring go into the general tax pot and are not earmarked for road building, just as tobacco taxes don't go into funding better cigarette factories or tobacco farmers in Cuba (or even building lung cancer hospitals...).
Some of the grottiest highway surfaces I have experienced were in the USA, so it all depends on one's perspective, one's sensitivity (one may overlook local poor quality more easily) and on which bit of road one happens to be travelling.
A related example of perspective is motorway mileage. The UK has many fewer miles of motorway than some comparable western European countries, but when one adds in the miles of dual-carriageway non-motorway roads the situation looks much more respectable. (The speed limit is the same.)
And yes, I am dead against the London "congestion charge" as well. I voted for the main opposition mayoral candidate at the last election mainly because he promised to abolish this charge and I can't stand Ken Livingstone, the mayor. However, a majority of Londonders disagreed with me... And don't get ME started on Ken Livingstone as I shall get VERY off-topic and into blue language... But I will say that he is good on TV and I think that is what helped him get re-elected.
DAS
For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
--
"joe schmoe" < snipped-for-privacy@virgin.not> wrote in message
news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 23:37:06 -0000, "Dori A Schmetterling"

I'm in the East Midlands where there is surface frost, but not any degree of frost in the ground. I've yet to see any heaving or burst sewer pipes as a result of frost in this county. How deep is the frost line in the ground where you are?

I "plucked" that one from many excuses provided to constituents who call asking about the pace and direction of progress. In the local area we're still working on getting the bypass started which was tentatively approved 30 years ago. Many of the engineers at work find the Euro excuse works 99.9% of the time to placate agitated rate payers.

The temperature has peaked here in the midlands near 30'C as well, if I recall correctly. However, there is a big difference between 2 months of 30'C+ and 2 - 3 hours of 30'C. Keeping in mind that most homes aren't air conditioned, I will concede that 30'C probably feels hotter for most English. The real challenge for engineers is the prairies (I believe that a location in Alberta Canada once went from +24'C --> -6'C in under 24 hours. though -25'C --> + 3'C is more common over a day or two)

The tax range of 75% isn't that high? Even Switzerland fuel is taxed at a lower rate. Yes, relative to income the cost of fuel (and motoring for that matter) has come down substantially, but the degree of petrol taxation has increased. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/world/2000/world_fuel_crisis/933648.stm Sorry couldn't find any charts that included the 50's 60's & 70's

I have to agree with you there. But they aren't paying .60 ppL on their fuel

Mathematically you're correct. one little wrinkle to the math is the way in which dual carriage ways are constructed here in the UK. A nearby town has a dual carriageway bypass. 5 miles long and there are 4 roundabouts 2 of which have had traffic lights installed. In North America there are locations which beg for roundabouts yet traffic lights are installed. Here there are locations which beg for fly overs or synchronized lights and roundabouts are installed.
I guess when one's only tool is a hammer every problem becomes a nail.
as for Ken..................
PS preceding not spell checked, grammar checked or even reread ;-)
PPS there are some roman roads in the area that are pushing 2000 years old, though they've not had "Modern Tires/Tyres" on them for that duration
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
See below.
--
For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Try from -20F to +40F in less than 12 hours. That's just a mild Chinook.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

The UK doesn't know what deep frost is. A few years ago Ottawa, Canada experienced frozen water pipes over 4 feet down. They now are placing them deeper. That was a record cold winter, in spite of global warming. <:)
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Yes the UK fuel prices have not increased as fast as in NA over the last 25 yrs, but the UK fuel taxes are still much higher as a percentage of fuel costs.

Yes UK roads are much better maintained than in the USA and Canada, but most roads bases are very old and settled and frost damage isn't a factor. Even Canada with such great distances between major population centers has better roads than in the USA. Canada's fuel costs are higher than in the USA due to taxes. It's obvious the USA needs higher fuel taxes to provide for better road maintenance. I frequently drive in the USA western states and see the frequent poor maintenance of the I5, that runs from Canada to the southern USA. Canada's roads do suffer significant frost damage each winter, so watch the potholes in late winter and spring. >:)
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
There's no potholes like EnY potholes...
(Doesn't scan but you get my meaning.)
DAS
For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
--
"Spam Hater" < snipped-for-privacy@spam.net> wrote in message
news: snipped-for-privacy@news.telus.net...
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

of
five of

private
Matt, sorry to jump in here late but that's just not true, at least not in state of Oregon.
A couple years back OR had state highway 217 repaved. Within 2 years the surface was deeply grooved. Problem was traced to improper composition of materials used for the road. The contractor ended up coming back in and paying (mostly) for a repave with the correct materials.
It's a real small community of people in the country that puts these jobs out for bid, and most states competitive bid processes have mechanisms that the purchasing people can use to invalidate bids made by companies who cannot prove they have the wherewithal to actually do the work, or who have histories of screwing over other purchasers, etc.
Ted
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

That isn't what I was talking about. Performing to the currently accepted standards isn't the same as trying to raise the bar, exceed the standards and find better methods.

Again, I wasn't talking about weeding out the bad apples. I was talking about the competitive bid process not encouraging performance beyond the bare minimum required to get the job.
Matt
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

That works as long as the people running the contracting system are not corrupt, but that's why we have elections (which work as long as the people running *those* are not corrupt). :)
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

Is it really the salt? Or those heavily laden snow plows scraping along the surface and catching every little blemish? Even where they have added the rubber edge to the blade would seem to become stiff enough in the cold to catch irregularities. All it would take is to pry up the first pebble to begin the deterioration process.
--
Spike
1965 Ford Mustang Fastback 2+2, Vintage Burgundy
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Related Threads

    Motorsforum.com is a website by car enthusiasts for car enthusiasts. It is not affiliated with any of the car or spare part manufacturers or car dealers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.