Perhaps, but in the US more buyers still choose GM, Ford and Chrysler vehicles over Toyota or Honda. They must believe GM, Ford and Chrysler vehicles are better, no matter what CR believes ;)
mike hunt
You might consider actually looking at what CR says about cars before you denounce what they say (or more accurately didn't say).
Let's see April '06 issue p. 49. The Crown Vic gets an average rating for reliability and owner satisfaction and is recommended. Then on page 63 we have the Grand marquis that gets an average rating for reliability and for owner satisfaction and is recommended. (Both get black dots for depreciation.)
Gee, they rate the same. What the heck are you talking about?
Actually, the Honda Accord is the #2 best selling medium sized sedan. The Camry is #1. The Prius is the best selling hybrid. Honda Odysseys sell very well, although Chrysler may out-sell them (Odysseys are pricey). The Civic sells well in a crowded segment. And gee, no rebates on any of them!
Uh, you are abusing the term "problematic". It means:
Debatable: open to doubt or debate; "If you ever get married, which seems to be extremely problematic"
Baffling: making great mental demands; hard to comprehend or solve or believe; "a baffling problem"; "I faced the knotty problem of what to have for breakfast"; "a problematic situation at home"
It does not mean trouble-prone as you seem to think. And, again, you are misinterpreting the five year old model reliability numbers that CR publishes. Please read the caption next to the graphs.
CR sends a survey form to their subscribers EVERY YEAR, EVERY YEAR. If you did not get a survey in a given year, it's because you were no longer a subscriber. I've subscribed for about 3 decades and I get the survey EVERY YEAR.
Let's see. Page 80 of the April, 2006 issue. Recommended used cars include:
Chevy Prism, Ford Escort, Ranger and Mustang, Mercury Tracer, Saturn SL, Buick Regal, Ford Crown Vic and F-150, Mercury Grand Marquis, Buick Century and Regal, Lincoln Continental and Town Car, Chevy Silverado, PT Cruiser, GMC Sierra, Chevy Impala, Chevy Monte Carlo, Pontiac Vibe, Pontiac Grand Prix, Saturn Ion...
OK, I'm getting tired of writing names. Point is, you have no clue what you are talking about.
The avoid list has no Toyotas, but it does have the Honda Passport. Also a whole bunch of Nissans and lots and lots of domestic and European models...including Mercs and Porsches.
They only send one out every year to you, because you're special (unless you now something that I don't). My subscription ran out years after I dumped that Nissan turd. When I traded it in, I had a bag of interior parts in the trunk that had fallen off the car. Add that to the 2 alternators, 2 starters, 1 water pump, 3 sets of brakes, 3 exhausts and an oil sending unit the size of a spin-on oil filter (but much, much more expensive) all that in only 54,000 miles. And you get another CR rated car with a lower than average rated of repair (if that's low, I'd hate to see high). Every Chevy I've owned has had a low rating according to CR and all but one of them was a really great car.
Group: alt.autos.gm Date: Tue, Mar 7, 2006, 11:50pm From: snipped-for-privacy@CHARTERMI.NET (GRL) CR sends a survey form to their subscribers EVERY YEAR, EVERY YEAR. If you did not get a survey in a given year, it's because you were no longer a subscriber. I've subscribed for about 3 decades and I get the survey EVERY YEAR.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% "So why do I drive a big SUV? It's because I have to haul numerous people and things to places." ~ R. Lee Baxton ~
That is the point they only rely on the opinions of those subscribers who reply. How many subscribers do they have? What percentage of their subscriber rely? How many of the 225,000,000 vehicles owners in the US subscribe to CR? How many of the 18,000,000, or so, annual new vehicle buyers are subscribers? CRs opinion of the cars they do buy and test are useless, except at it applies to that ONE vehicle. Should anybody believe the one vehicle they buy is indicative, good or bad, of all the thousands or hundreds of thousands of vehicles customer actually will buy of that model? ;)
mike hunt
What does anyones opinion have to do with the ONE used vehicle one may chose to buy, based on CRs recommendations, good or bad? No used car buyer can possible know for sure how that particular vehicle was used or abused, or whether it was properly maintained or not by it previous owner(s).
mike hunt
Mike,
why do you keep repeating this misinformation? Toyota is #3 right now, unless you have a cite that contradicts the figures I've already posted.
nate
Mike Hunter wrote:
Haven't been in this thread before but it would be interesting to look at sales divided into two categories A) People buying personal cars with their own money and B) People buying cars for someone else with public or corporate money (fleets, rentals, etc.) I suspect that GM/DC/Ford would lead in category B and that Toyota and Honda would lead in category A. Don't know that for a fact. Just my opinion.
Howard
89 Mustang 5.0 95 Windstar 3.8
You're probably right, in part because most fleet buyers don't even consider foreign cars because they don't want to appear unpatriotic.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see the US mfgrs. get back on their feet and start producing cars that people actually want; minimizing the problem doesn't help to solve it though.
nate
What difference does it make who buys their vehicles? I owned a fleet service business up until a few years ago. We serviced thousands vehicle for large and small corporate fleets as well as government fleets, is six eastern states. EVERY manufacture offers specially equipped vehicles to corporate fleets at a discount, of around the same amount $400 to $600 if you buy five or more, and they all try to get more of the corporate fleet business. Few corporate fleets buy very many imports because contrary to what many believe, import can not compete with domestics in the total cost of ownership over the five years, or 300K, fleets generally keep their vehicles because of federal depreciation tax laws. Fleet vehicles get the finest of preventive maintance and are generally used harder than privately owned vehicles. Fleets look at the total cost of acquiring, insuring, maintaining, repairing (they ALL need to be repaired at some point) and replacing the vehicles which are just one more tool used in their business that must be replaced at some point. Ford motor company vehicles are generally the best in that regard, that is why the biggest majority of corporate fleet vehicles are Fords. GM is second. LOOK at the corporate light trucks you see daily, Ford trucks dominate. The only state I know of that buys import brands is Tennessee, they use Nissan trucks that are assembled there. The biggest problem with most imports is acquisition costs, that average 25% higher for the same type of vehicle, and down time because of parts availability. As well as the much higher price of the parts themselves.
On the bottom end of fleet car business, imports have a majority of business, however Primary Korean cars that are used as courier cars, others are Corollas, Civics, Neon's, VWs, Focus etc. Courier cars are run round the clock and rarely turned off except for maintenance. They easily accumulate 100K a year or more and are dumped sooner.
mike hunt
. "Howard Nelson" wrote in message news:coGPf.34907$ snipped-for-privacy@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
They only send one out to me (and every other subscriber) because we're special in that we paid for a subscription.
- GRL
Group: alt.autos.gm Date: Tue, Mar 7, 2006, 11:50pm From: snipped-for-privacy@CHARTERMI.NET (GRL) CR sends a survey form to their subscribers EVERY YEAR, EVERY YEAR. If you did not get a survey in a given year, it's because you were no longer a subscriber. I've subscribed for about 3 decades and I get the survey EVERY YEAR.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% "So why do I drive a big SUV? It's because I have to haul numerous people and things to places." ~ R. Lee Baxton ~
My God you are stubborn. You start with a bare fact and then you distort it until the starting fact is no longer recognizable. You considered politics? Or used care sales?
OK, get this, the responses to CR's surveys are voluntary and the sample size is not 100% of their subscriber base let alone of the total car market. That's why they count how many replies they get and if it is not a statistically significant number (as it would not be for something like a
911 Porsche or a Bentley), they don't rate that car for reliability. Now, being that it is a voluntary survey (and that's the only kind that you can get for something like a car since the manufacturers are not going to tell you what their repair number look like and once out of warranty even they don't know), there is room for some bias. People who really like their car may shade the truth about something that went wrong, people who are really picky may find things wrong that no one else would bother about, but the assumption is that on average, people tell the truth and you get as many fudging one way as the other. A reasonable assumption...especially since these surveys have been going on for decades and general trends remain the same...large sample sets (multi-year) take on a certainty of their own. Add to this the fact that the results CR gets closely mirror what other organizations like J.D. Power) get and you end up with most folks end up with in how they view CR survey results...they represent reality.A fun exercise would be to find a dealer that sells both domestic and Asian cars and make friends with somebody in their repair shop. Ask which of their brands they see people coming back for repair work on more often and then go see if the CR survey results jibe. they will.
Next time you are at an airport and are picking up a rental car, cruise the lot and see how many Asian brand cars they have. You may be surprised. Korean brands are showing up a lot where I live, probably because they are inexpensive and have gotten pretty darned reliable very quick.
And I completely agree with you that it would be fantastic if the domestic makers turn things around. They are having a near-death experience and that does tend to focus the mind...so it may happen.
By the way, check out the April 2006 Motor Trend. they interview the guy who is head of Toyota-USA (an ex-Ford guy) and get a surprising, in some ways, look at what makes Toyota tick and so successful. Also some of the chinks in the armor.
OK, Mike, I give up. You make a demonstrably false statement about CR's car ratings. I go to the trouble of documenting your incorrectness. Then in reply (acknowledging no error) you go off on a new tangent that is similarly baseless. You keep creating straw men and then beat the crap out of them. (What fun!)
Your amazing persistence has won.
- GRL
One can point to CR ratings all one choose but the fact remains the only reliable survey of what buyers really believe are sales to actual buyers year after year. More buyers in the US still continue to buy more of the vehicles sold by GM, by a three to one margin than ANY import brand, not matter how many times CR says they are better. Apparently most buyers do not agree with the opinions of CR. You obviously believe differently ;)
mike hunt
WOW WHAT A REVELATION!!! I never thought of paying for a subscription. You truly ARE special. BTW, when I subscribe to a magazine, I usually take the longest subscription they offer because it's annoying to have to renew all the time. Howsomever, if I find that a magazine doesn't live up to my expectations, I have enough intelligence to cancel my subscription. CR stopped being relevant when they started "shading" their results but I cancelled after I purchased some of their "recommended" products that turned out to be duds.
Group: alt.autos.gm Date: Wed, Mar 8, 2006, 8:01pm From: snipped-for-privacy@CHARTERMI.NET (GRL) They only send one out to me (and every other subscriber) because we're special in that we paid for a subscription.
- GRL
Group: alt.autos.gm Date: Tue, Mar 7, 2006, 11:50pm From: snipped-for-privacy@CHARTERMI.NET (GRL) CR sends a survey form to their subscribers EVERY YEAR, EVERY YEAR. If you did not get a survey in a given year, it's because you were no longer a subscriber. I've subscribed for about 3 decades and I get the survey EVERY YEAR.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% "So why do I drive a big SUV? It's because I have to haul numerous people and things to places." ~ R. Lee Baxton ~
I worked for Hertz from 1989-99. About 65% of the fleet was Ford products company wide. The rest was a mixture of of the others, domestic (Chrysler and GM) and import. Lots of Mazda and Nissan, some Honda, Volvo, some Kia and Suzuki. Other locations had imports from other mfgrs such as Lexus, Mercedes and BMW. At one time or other Hertz had cars from every manufacturer who sold cars in thr US.
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