Make it easier to get safety features.

That's the only way it can work. It's based on an ECU and a bunch of sensors.

Erm... well yes. Stability protection cannot assume you're using standard suspension and tyres on a dry road surface. If you replace your tyres for el cheapo ones, it doesn't need to be told, it figures it out by itself. :-)

Try this page on my website:

(I think that's the direct link).

Goodo!

Spot on. Experienced drivers do it to. It's very hard to apply the right amount of pressure when faced with a "oh-oh" situation...

Hehehehe. Nice.

Yes, but for 99% of drivers, 99% of the time, airbags, stability protection, ABS, EBD and EBA is additional weight and cost. Sure, when needed it's great. I can only think of one occasion when ABS was genuinely useful in helping me avoid something under heavy braking. It doesn't help me stop, it allows some steering control when braking hard... but it doesn't prevent a skid if you brake and steer at the same time.

Traction control is the same. You can still wheelspin with traction control.

Those cars I've driven with stability protection, they vary. BMWs allow some oversteery antics. Mercedes don't. But you can still skid off the road.

Airbags? This Accord (waves to Accord sat outside the house) has four airbags (and a broken SRS module but that's something else). My last machine was written off

and the airbags were not needed, thus not used. They sat in their housing for nearly five years and when the car was lunched into a roll then hit the kerb, they didn't deploy...

Some systems are designed to prevent oversteer in corners, but nothing can overcome the basic laws of phsyics. For the system to work you have to skid a little, that's how it spots you're skidding. Some tyres make a louder racket than others.

The system is not triggered if you "tap the brakes." If you aggressively punch the pedal then it triggers, but as soon as you lift off, it lets go too. It uses a certain element of logic too, working on what your other controls are doing, what they've just been doing, how much force and how hard you push the pedal, so on and so forth.

Tapping the brake pedal doesn't trigger it. You have to jack on the anchors with lots of force.

Actually if the guy was an idiot and was hammering along then punched the pedal, he caused the crash in conjunction with the other chuffs behind.

It doesn't. It augments what the driver does.

I've played with all sorts of electronic systems. Some can be fooled pretty easily. Accelerate hard then brake firmly and the Mercedes EBA is triggered. Tapping the brakes doesn't trigger it.

One problem with this solution is power consumption, which in turn is linked to fuel consumption. Running 110 watts of bulb uses up more than running 24 watts of bulb and does make an appreciable difference to motion lotion. Thanks to the wonders of carbon credits, every part mile per gallon is starting to count.

And the other issue of wearing out the wretched things. How many Volvos do you see with one headlight working?

I agree, but I suspect we both know it's not going to be possible to achieve this.

As for ABS, two sides of the coin. On the one hand, yeah it keeps you pointing in the right direction when you stand on the brakes. On the other, there are idiots that believe it shortens their stopping distance and thus tailgate and drive too fast.

Way too many British people don't have the foggiest on how to use high visibility lights (front fog, rear fog lamps). Some idiots put *everything* on either to look cool or at the merest hint of rain. Other chumps keep everything off until it's dark...

Nice clear explanation. Thanks.

(should have said '07 TOYOTA)

Like fire insurance ...

It's got everything to do with how risk-averse you are, how lucky you feel, how often you do stupid things on the road, etc.

I'm only too happy to make a modest investment that might one day save me from my own stupidity, and just as happy when those same safety systems are never employed.

I'm especially happy to have them so that I can also be protected from the stupidity of other drivers, too distracted by cell phones to stop for stop signs or traffic signals.

A few years ago I was driving around Providence in a 25 MPH zone and approaching an intersection where the cross street traffic had to stop and I did not.

Just before I entered the intersection a driver flashed thru it from my left doing at least 45 MPH. The 1990 van I was driving had NO airbags and would not have been able to avoid the accident if I had gotten there a couple of seconds sooner. If the situation repeats itself and I'm not so lucky next time, I REALLY want the extra protection!

The first car I had with 4-wheel disc and ABS was a Nissan NX-2000. It was a cute little red car, and occasionally my wife drove it. One day a truck blew through an intersection and she had to stand on the brakes and swerve all over the place to avoid being hit. But she did it, largely because of that hammering under the brake pedal combined with the excellent maneuverability of that little sports car.

The fool is always greater than the proof.

+-----------------------------------------+ | Charles Lasitter | Mailing/Shipping | | 401/728-1987 | 14 Cooke St | | cl+at+ncdm+dot+com | Pawtucket RI 02860 | +-----------------------------------------+

thats the point. it was a system fault. Wouldn't, couldn't happen with standard brakes, can with the EBA stuff. THATS the point.

read what you just said. It augments. how does it know it needs augmenting. can it see why you're slowing? no, it can't. Right below this you yourself say how you can fool these systems. If they can be triggered into reacting inappropriately, why would you call that a safety system.

We have a driver, a control system that samples the data all arond the vehicle 9or is supposed to) and makes edcisions based on whats going on around the vehicular unit. Is the car dong the same? if not, how can it tell if the braking force needs 'augmenting'. Friend of mine was involved with the Darpa grand challenge. one of the problems they faced was braking - getting the braking force suitable for the enviroment. it all depends on how far you have to stop, if you intend to stop or just slow down, is avoidance needed, what surface you're on, how you're loaded. no car on the market can tell any of that. It could tell the mass you're carrying, but is that load in the back a wardrobe, or half a tank of tropical fish, or 10 8ft sheets of plastic. Are you stoping because there's a child just run out, you've just spotted a cop with a radar gun, or the lights you were hoping to make just turned red. Is it rainy, there snow, or sand on the road. If it can't tell, how can it adapt. I could be braking, be just shy of the braking limit for the conditions, but EBA thinks I meant to break harder, so it presses harder, oops lockup, now thats the ABS kicking in, thats longer stopping, less control, all for a system that think sit knows better.

Dangerous? I should cocoa.

not when its working 100%. If you've lpayed with electronic systems, you shoud know they're some of the most tempramental and fragile things out there. They're also good at going wrong and giving no hint of it until its too late.

Great, you assume the headlight bulbs are the ones used. not so, I said the firststop. in the Us, thats the orange 'running lights', as you should know the volvos in the UK used those small 11W sidelights. dipped beam is the 55W elements, which are the second stop on the headlight rocker. As a brit, i'm sure you appreciate the difference between them - turn your lights on, turn the ignition off, and take your keys out - should just be your sidelights that are left on.

nope, doesn't keep you opointing in any direction. it just increases the chance that you will be able to steer. in many cases, ABS won't stop you sliding at all. in some, it'll actualy make you spin.

again, as I said, don't use technology to compensate for stupidity. The only way to beat that is education.

To a degree... or perhaps how much stupidity you see on the roads instead, heh.

*cough* :)

EBA doesn't do it. Period. It would not be allowed to be used if it caused accidents like this.

Imagine the law suits?

You're suggesting that we shouldn't bother with power assisted steering and servo-assisted brakes. These also augment the driver control input in

*exactly* the same way.

No, they're not acting inappropriately. They're doing what they're designed. But they are unable to bend the laws of phsyics. If I barrel into Silverstone's Maggots at 95 mph, brake hard as the road drops, the back end will waggle. It'll usually break away. The stability protection is of limited use when the rear wheels are not in proper contact with the tarmac.

That's where the fuzzy logic is involved. It's 2FC/2, i.e., very clever stuff. But it works from what the driver does. See my other comment about power assisted steering.

No.

In isolation it doesn't work this way *unless* you're on a racing circuit and you know exactly how much pressure to apply and when, thus you can thump the pedal to achieve maximum retardation and you do it very quickly.

On the road, only fools thump the brake pedal without wishing to stop in a hurry. It knows the difference between quick and firm rolling on the pressure and a sudden thump. That's what the system spots. Most fools quickly learn that if they thump the pedal of a car with EBA it stops quicker than they *first* anticipated.

The first time one drives a new car, we learn stuff about it. Say it has a quicker steering rack. We may oversteer the first one or two corners. Then we learn. It's precisely the same with *any* situation.

First time I triggered the ABS in our Ka was a learning experience. Second time I knew what to expect.

Herein is precisely why the driver in the circumstances needs to be educated or at least try it.

As for the stopping distance and control argument, stopping distances are slightly longer with the ABS humming away than a skilled driver without ABS in ideal circumstances. I don't know of any driver than can hold a car at the point just before lock up in an emergency situation such as the ones you've described.

No more so than servo assisted brakes. Nothing an experiment can't get over. I don't understand your concerns. It is as though you don't want to learn about these new fangled power brakes and what not...

No manufacturer allows a system such as this that doesn't work to go on production machines.

EBA fails safe. It deactivates. That and a whole bunch of warning lights.

Ermmmm they are on the Volvo S60...

Nope.

Ooooh I live in the UK, yeah, but being British...? That's something else.

In the absence of steering input, ABS keeps you pointing in the right direction because no locked wheel or prolonged change in braking effort from one or more tyres causes a yaw action.

Only if the driver cannot control the car. And that's why we have so many stability control applications out there...

Agreed. Except even the stupid get driving licences.

Pah, let's just use the low tech cowcatcher. Worked on the RR's for decades.

I do, a lot, I have trouble keeping my speed down on certain roads, e.g., Palisades Interstate Parkway, so I engage cruise control at a speed low enough to skate by the troopers whenever possible.