This sounds odd but humor me.
I bought an '07 Elantra. Just out of curiosity, what things would you
do to a new car to make it easier to work on later? Up until my last
car I tended to own older used cars, and I hated working on them
because bolts were frequently frozen in place, everything was rusted
For example, if I can get the time, I'd love to take my brakes apart
and use anti-seize compound anywhere that's appropriate. Hopefully
things will come apart and go together that much more easily when the
time comes to actually do the work. (Note, I said anti-seize and not
grease, and I plan on tightening things to their proper torque. I want
them to come apart on command, not while driving.)
Are there plugs/connectors on the back of the foglights that could
corrode? This is rhetorical, I'll check it myself. But I"ve seen
enough dead aftermarket ones that if there is a connector there some
dielectric grease may keep the corrosion away for a little longer.
Again, it probably sounds like I'm being a little too
anal/proactive/possibly ineffective, but what things do you hate about
working older cars that could be prevented?
These days, just about nothing. Last time I changed a bulb it already had
the dielectric grease on it.
Years ago, I'd agree with you. I remember being at my brother's house one
morning and he took the battery out to clean and paint the battery tray. I
came back that evening and he had the entire front end of the car apart to
prime and pain the underside. Bumper, fenders, cowlings, etc. It was a '69
Impala they was his daily driver until he bought a 2003 Grand Prix. He also
owned 15 other cars, but they were not driven much. (from 1928 Model A,
three 66 Mustangs, '55 Ford Convertible, etc)
They don't build 'em like the used to.
Most modern cars use sealed electrical connectors that seldom give
trouble and many even have dielectric grease in them from the factory.
I also put grease on exposed bolts and nuts that I think I may need to
remove some day. I also put grease on the exposed part of the lug studs
(if they don't have the full cover lug nuts as is more common today) so
that the nuts come off easier when I next rotate tires.
I apply Vaseline to the battery terminals.
There really isn't much to do on more cars and trucks nowadays.
You should NEVER put grease on lugs, as it will result in them being
over-torqued. The specified torque setting for lugs are for DRY lugs.
Greasing reduces friction and when tightened to the recommended torque,
there will be too much tension on the lug, creating a risk of breakage.
No kidding. That is why I only put grease on the threads that are
exposed (as I clearly stated above) after the nuts are torqued. If the
nuts are the "acorn" style and fully cover the studs, then no need for
grease at all.
Yes, to some degree, but I'm not too worried about it. The torque
tables have a fair bit of margin built into them and I don't have much
residual lubricant on the threads. I'm much farther away from yielding
the stud than are the monkeys at many garages that use an impact wrench
to install the lug nuts and tighten them so hard it flows the metal on
the rim chamfer.
Also, I'm a licensed professional engineer and know a little bit about
fasteners, material properties and torque.
Doe the "anti-seize" some places (Wal-Mart, for instance) insist on putting
on have a similar effect? If it does, should they be reducing the torque to
some extent? BTW: I watch them like a hawk, and pre-mark the destination
location for the wheels with a sharpie on the wheel. The can't seem to
follow instructions regarding cross-forward, but they are cheap, and fast.
If you look at the chart at the link that Matt provided, you'll see that
anti-seize is the worst thing you can put on wheel studs, as it
dramatically reduces friction and will result in too much tension in the
I don't know what the lubrication properties are of all of the
anti-seize compounds, but the one I use (Permatex) clearly advertises
that it is an anti-seize lubricant, however, I've never seem
instructions to change the spark plug torque due to the use of anti-seize.
I don't use it on lug nuts so I don't know the effect there, but I
suspect it would be similar to using standard grease. It is desirable
that the lug studs and nuts be clean and dry when using the factory
torque values, however, I'll err on clean and slightly greasy/oily as
opposed to rusty with threads that are rounded off due to rust and keep
applying grease to the part of the stud that is exposed beyond the lug nut.
I wouldn't trust my wheel rotations to any shop that refuses to use a
manually operated torque wrench. Proper torque values require that
inertial effects be eliminated and that can't be done with air operated
tools. Don't believe for a second that a "torque stick" will give the
save value of lug stud tension as will a manually torqued lug nut.
08:50) about "Re: What to do to a new Elantra?":
MW> .... It is desirable that the lug studs and nuts be clean and dry when
MW> using the factory torque values, however, I'll err on clean and
MW> slightly greasy/oily as opposed to rusty with threads that are rounded
MW> off due to rust and keep applying grease to the part of the stud that
MW> is exposed beyond the lug nut.
MW> I wouldn't trust my wheel rotations to any shop that refuses to use a
MW> manually operated torque wrench. Proper torque values require that
MW> inertial effects be eliminated and that can't be done with air
MW> operated tools. Don't believe for a second that a "torque stick" will
MW> give the save value of lug stud tension as will a manually torqued lug
Agreed 100% with all of the above. I have stopped using places that don't
torque nuts properly including those only using the torque sticks.
=== Posted with Qusnetsoft NewsReader 3.3
58:14) about "Re: What to do to a new Elantra?":
MW> Also, I'm a licensed professional engineer and know a little bit about
MW> fasteners, material properties and torque.
Uh oh .. I was waiting to see when that was going to crop up in this
I too am a licenced PE and have been following this discussion with some
interest and must say that we must agree to disagree.
I agree in most part with Brian's viewpoint.
Torque specifications always imply clean dry unlubricated threads. What
amount of grease is 'lubricated' is subjective and we can have this
discussion till the cows come home.
I think we can all agree that if the studs are 'wiped clean' with a shop
rag (varying degrees of 'greasy', light assumed) then no real problem
regarding over-torqing. OTOH if I foolishly apply a dab of grease to the
studs then torque the nuts the tension in the bolt shank and the shear in
the thread roots will be greater than the manufacturer intended. None of us
know how close we would be to failure or how much margin is in the
I seem to recall the simple torque-tension formula
T = KDP
where K is a constant related to friction at the mating surfaces, D is root
diameter of the shank and P is the developed tension.
As we can easily see, decreasing the friction given the same applied torque
will result in increased tension.
I personally choose to have clean dry 'unlubricated' lugs on all my cars in
all road conditions (salty included), and to use a toque wrench, and my
wheels have never fallen off nor have the nuts been hard to remove.
Needless to say the nuts have not backed off either.
I changed the subject of this thread to one more appropriate.
=== Posted with Qusnetsoft NewsReader 3.3
This thread has been dead for a week. Try to keep up next time.
Is licenced anything like licensed? Which state or province?
They don't imply that at all. Most tables specify if the values therein
apply to dry fasteners, plated fasteners, or fasteners that are
lubricated with any number of different lubricants from motor oil to dry
I use grease on the exposed studs on my cars after properly torquing the
lug nuts and have never had the wheels fall off, nuts that are hard to
remove or any rust or deterioration of the fasteners and threads. If
you drive a car in an area with winter and road salt and don't have
fully covered lug nuts, then you WILL have rusted lug nuts and the
exposed lug studs will rust as will. Unprotected steel simply will not
tolerate salt-laden moisture for any length of time without surface
damage. And damaged thread surfaces will not longer torque properly.
Do they then, also specify what the defintion of "dry" is? Do they specify
an acceptable amount of corrosion? Do they reference studs that have
already been turned on several time versus brand new studs? I'm not arguing
with you Matt - I'm agreeing with you. I believe too much attention has
been focused on "book" material, while ignoring the real world of studs.
Most mean "new" fastener threads when they say "clean and dry" and that
is the problem in the real world and the reason I apply grease to my
exposed studs AFTER I torque the nuts properly. This keeps the threads
in as nearly new condition as I possibly can in the PA/NY winters in
which I drive.
That's pretty much what I was getting at Matt. The effects of friction on
torque work both ways. Too little (owing to grease) have one adverse effect
on torque readings, while more friction (as expected from not new fasteners)
will likewise have a similar effect, although in the opposite direction.
Advocates that suggest addressing one side of that issue by pointing out
that lubricants affect torque values don't address the other side of that
value line, which is that stud in normal use display an equal disassociation
from the theoretical perfect stud.
Mike, you explained my point better than I did. This is exactly what I
meant. I have yet to find a reference to support this, but I did find
one that supports my earlier assertion that most engineers prefer
properly lubricated fasteners rather than dry fasteners as the
variability in bolt tension achieved is less. Maybe others disagree,
but even with their problems, I still consider NASA a pretty reputable
source with respect to things technical. Look at page 3-6 and note that
the variability is reduced substantially with lubricated vs. dry fasteners.
2008 23:43:01) about "Re: Torquing lug nuts":
MM> Do they then, also specify what the defintion of "dry" is? Do they
MM> specify an acceptable amount of corrosion? Do they reference studs
MM> that have already been turned on several time versus brand new studs?
Good points indeed. I believe I made a similar point also in my post -
there are no absolutes, no matter how many times some dogmatic posters try
to force then POV down our throats.
=== Posted with Qusnetsoft NewsReader 3.3
Yes, very true. However, it is pretty widely accepted in the
engineering community that threads with rust, spalling, or other surface
damage will not achieve a reliable amount of tension when torque is used
as the sole measure of fastener tension. Using a lubricant lessens the
chance of such thread damage as does my practice of using grease to keep
road salt and moisture off of my lug studs.
Obviously, the average garage and motorist can't be counted on to
properly lubricate lug stud threads, therefore the auto makers provide
"clean and dry" torque values and just accept the risk of thread damage
If I lived in an arid region, then I would not use any thread protection
at all as it would be unnecessary. In PA and NY where road salt is
heavily used for at least 4 months of the year, exposed lug stud threads
simply will not survive many years without some protection. I tend to
keep my vehicles a long time (my K1500 pickup is a 1994 and thus 14
years old), and you simply can't keep the threads "clean and dry" in my
area without some form of protection applied to them. My Chevy has
pretty tight fitting plastic center covers in the allow wheels and these
keep the studs pretty clean, but they still get moisture from
condensation if nothing else. A little grease used properly keeps the
studs like new even after 14 years, 100,000+ miles and at least 10 tire
rotations, plus 14 wheel removals for annual state inspections. I've
seen cars that are half the age of my truck and have lug studs where the
threads are virtually rust away on the first 1/8" of so of the stud and
the damage often extends past where the threads enter the lug nuts.
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