1992 Wrangler won't start in Morning

I would be checking the ground strap that runs from the rear of the engine head to the firewall. If bad, it can cause strange symptoms and ground theft or loop issues.

You can maybe test it with a booster cable. I run the booster from the battery to a metal spot on the firewall to see if the symptoms change.

The ground for the fuel pump is maybe dirty? I think it is located attached to the frame of the emergency brake bracket under the dash.

Mike

86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail >

getting any spark when the engine was turning.

the car is cold or have cooled down it won't start. I have to wait at least 5 to

10 minutes before the PCM activates things.

Thanks Earle. I cleaned out my list ... what can I say. I'm a neat freak.

KJK

: > Sometimes just throwing parts at a problem can be more expensive than : taking : > your rig in to thew shop. : > By throwing parts at an unknown issue, you are essentially wasting your : time : > and money. It may be time to bite the bullet and take it in to a shop and : > have it diagnosed. : >

: > You say below that you changed the CPS "just in case you are not getting : > spark" when the engine is running. Have you not checked for spark? That : > there is a biggie! : > Do you know how? : > Get two pairs of rubber handled pliers : > Remove a plug wire from the spark plug, : > Pull the boot back from the tip of the plug wire if you can : > If not use a piece of wire like a paperclip. Be sure it is bent into a U : so : > it will get contact. Stuff it into the end of the plug wire so it gets : good : > contact with the metal tip on the plug wire. Set it where it will not : touch : > anything metal or electrical and start the vehicle. : > Hold the tip of the wire close to the engine block where it's metal and : look : > for spark. : >

: > Have you checked your fuel pressure, fuel filter, rotor, distributor cap, : > coil ? : >

: > Have you a Service manual for the beastie? : >

: > KJK : >

: >

1/2 : > to 2 times the : > : price in the USA. : > : : > : I'd really appreciate any help on this matter. I am basically not sure : > which way to go : > : now. : > : : > : Thank you : > : Nadim : > : : > : : > : -- : > : nelkhour : > : : > : ------------------------------------------------------------------------ : > : View this thread: > : : > : Send from : > : : >

: >

: :

First and foremost thanks Kate, Mike and Earle for your reply as well as everyone else

I am in Doha, Qatar and Earle is right taking it somewhere to have it diagnosed is very difficult unless I want to go to the dealer here

I have checked for spark like kate had suggested and there is no spark when the engine is cranking.

I did change the fuel filter, but did not check the fuel pressure. I was going to check the rotor, distributor cap and finally the coil. I thought that nothing is wrong with those since it runs fine once it has started

In terms of testing if there are any issues with the ground strap that runs from the rear of the engine head to the firewall. Do I connect the booster cable to the positive terminal or negative terminal on the battery? I appologize if this is a stupid question

Another question, why would these not starting issue just happens when the car has cooled sufficiently down vs. being warm

I will try and see how to get the service manual here in Doha.

Again, thank you for all your help which has been very much appreciated

Nadi

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You connect the battery negative ground (-) terminal to some part of the engine or a piece of metal bolted to the engine to check the ground straps.

You would get fireworks if you accidentally connected the positive terminal to the engine block.

Use the negative and the booster cable to verify the body ground.

Bad connections can show when cold, then once they arc a bit and things warm up they can be ok for a bit.

Bad cold starts can also easily be the distributor cap and rotor....

Another place can be a dirty connection on the starter relay. This is where the main positive or usually red battery cable bolts on. At this relay are a mess of small wires. If dirty, they can interfere with spark while cranking.

Mike

86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail >

diagnosed is very difficult unless I want to go to the dealer here.

the engine is cranking.

to check the rotor, distributor cap and finally the coil. I thought that nothing is wrong with those since it runs fine once it has started.

from the rear of the engine head to the firewall. Do I connect the booster cable to the positive terminal or negative terminal on the battery? I appologize if this is a stupid question.

has cooled sufficiently down vs. being warm?

diagnosed is very difficult unless I want to go to the dealer here.

when the engine is cranking.

going to check the rotor, distributor cap and finally the coil. I thought that nothing is wrong with those since it runs fine once it has started.

runs from the rear of the engine head to the firewall. Do I connect the booster cable to the positive terminal or negative terminal on the battery? I appologize if this is a stupid question.

car has cooled sufficiently down vs. being warm?

Try

If the starter turns Billy Ray, then the engine ground is fine. If there is no spark, then maybe the body ground is bad.

Mike

86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail >

Hi Again Nadim,

I would try pulling your distributor cap, check it for wear and/or a crack. You might just go ahead and replace the Cap, rotor AND the little condenser. (if so equipped) All of those should be pretty inexpensive.

Have a look at your points. They are cheap too. If you even have points ....??? I have no idea about Jeeps like yours so I am guessing.

They are pretty inexpensive and something that probabaly needs replacing anyway. If you DO have points, and you DO replace them, be sure you set the gap properly.

Also, your coil (if so equipped) may be suspect.

Double, triple check your coil wire connection. Be sure that the ends of the wire are fully plugged in on both ends, that they protrude far enough out of the boot to connect firmly.

If you have located the ground strap unbolt it and clean all of the contact points on it and the places that it connects to. Use something like fine sandpaper and then reconnect them. .

Oh - call the dealership and tell them what's going on. Ask them for an estimate on the diagnosis. You never know, they may just suggest something that could be wrong if you as all the right questions.

Wish I had the brains to help you get it fixed :) This link may have some info that can help you too.

search your year and model, then repair guide

Keep us posted on your progress !

Kate

DIAGNOSIS & TESTING

Secondary Circuit Test

1.. Disconnect the coil wire from the center of the distributor cap.

Twist the rubber boot slightly in either direction, then grasp the boot and pull straight up. Do not pull on the wire, and do not use pliers.

2.. Hold the wire 1/2 in. (13mm) from a ground with a pair of insulated pliers and a heavy glove. As the engine is cranked, watch for a spark. 3.. If a spark appears, reconnect the coil wire. Remove the wire from one spark plug, and test for a spark as above.

WARNING

Do not remove the spark plug wires from cylinders 1 or 5, or sensor damage could occur!

4.. If a spark occurs, the problem is in the fuel system or with the ignition timing. If no spark occurs, check for a defective rotor, cap, or spark plug wires. 5.. If no spark occurs from the coil wire in Step 2, test the coil wire resistance with an ohmmeter. It should be 7,700-9,300 ohms at +75ºF (24ºC) or 12,000 ohms maximum at +93ºF (34ºC).

Coil Primary Circuit Test

1.. Turn the ignition ON. Connect a voltmeter to the coil positive (+) terminal and a ground: 1.. If the voltage is 5.5-6.5 volts, go to Step 2. 2.. If above 7 volts, go to Step 4. 3.. If below 5.5 volts, disconnect the condenser lead and measure. If the reading with the condenser lead disconnected is now 5.5-6.5 volts, the condenser is faulty and should be replaced. If the reading is not 5.5-6.5 volts, go to Step 6. 2.. With the tester connected as in Step 1, read the voltage with the engine cranking. If battery voltage is indicated, the circuit is okay. If not, go to Step 3. 3.. Check for a short or open in the starter solenoid I-terminal wire. Check the solenoid for proper operation. 4.. Disconnect the wire from the starter solenoid I-terminal, with the ignition ON and the voltmeter connected as in Step 1: 1.. If the voltage drops to 5.5-6.5 volts, the solenoid is faulty and should be replaced. 2.. If the voltage does not drop to 5.5-6.5 volts, connect a jumper between the coil negative (-) terminal and a ground. If the voltage now drops to 5.5-6.5 volts, go to Step 5. If not, repair the resistance wire. 5.. Check for continuity between the coil negative (-) terminal and D4, and between D1 to ground. If the continuity is okay, replace the control unit. If not, check for an open wire and go back to Step 2. 6.. Turn ignition OFF. Connect an ohmmeter between the + coil terminal and dash connector AV. If above 1.40 ohms, repair the resistance wire. 7.. With the ignition OFF, connect the ohmmeter between connector AV and ignition switch terminal 11. If less than 0.1 ohms, replace the ignition switch or repair the wire, whichever is the cause. If above 0.1 ohms, check connections, and check for defective wiring.

Coil Test

1.. Check the coil for cracks, carbon tracks, etc., and replace as necessary. 2.. Connect an ohmmeter across the coil + and - terminals, with the coil connector removed. If 1.13-1.23 ohms at 75ºF (24ºC), the coil is okay. If not, replace it.

Control Unit and Sensor Test

1.. With the ignition ON, remove the coil high tension wire from the distributor cap and hold it 1/2 in. (13mm) from a ground with insulated pliers. Disengage the 4-wire connector at the control unit. If a spark occurs (normal), go to Step 2. If not, go to Step 5. 2.. Connect an ohmmeter to D2 and D3. If the resistance is 400-800 ohms (normal), go to Step 6. If not, go to Step 3. 3.. Disengage, then reconnect the 3-wire connector at distributor. If the reading is now 400-800 ohms, go to Step 6. If not, disengage the 3-wire connector and go to Step 4. 4.. Connect the ohmmeter across B2 and B3. If 300-800 ohms, repair the harness between the 3-wire and 4-wire connectors. If not, replace the sensor. 5.. Connect the ohmmeter between D1 and the battery negative terminal. If the reading is 0 (0.002 or less), go to Step 2. If above 0.002 ohms, there is a bad ground in the cable or at the distributor. Repair the ground and retest. 6.. Connect a analog voltmeter across D2 and D3. Crank the engine. If the needle fluctuates, the system is okay. If not, either the trigger wheel is defective, or the distributor is not turning. Repair or replace as required.

Ignition Feed-to-Control Unit Test

Do not perform this test without first performing the Coil Primary Circuit Test.

1.. With the ignition ON, unplug the 2-wire connector at the module. Connect a voltmeter between F2 and ground. If the reading is battery voltage, replace the control unit and go to Step 3. If not, go to Step 2. 2.. Repair the cause of the voltage reduction: either the ignition switch or a corroded dash connector. Check for a spark at the coil wire. If okay, stop. If not, replace the control unit and check for proper operation. 3.. Engage the 2-wire connector at the control unit, then unplug the 4-wire connector at the control unit. Connect an ammeter between C1 and ground. If it reads 0.9-1.1 amps, the system is okay. If not, replace the module.

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On a '92 I would certainly recommend replacing the cap and rotor, if it hasn't been done in a long time, or at all. He is saying no spark at all when cranking. Unless the cap and rotor are real bad, that tends to point to something else.

Earle

everyone else.

diagnosed is very difficult unless I want to go to the dealer here.

when the engine is cranking.

going to check the rotor, distributor cap and finally the coil. I thought that nothing is wrong with those since it runs fine once it has started.

runs from the rear of the engine head to the firewall. Do I connect the booster cable to the positive terminal or negative terminal on the battery? I appologize if this is a stupid question.

the car has cooled sufficiently down vs. being warm?

THanks everyone for the suggestions. I changed the rotor and distributor cap, but the same thing takes place. I need to get a booster cable to double check on the ground strap. I know Mike said that shouldn't be the problem since the car is cranking

I cleaned the connections on the battery as well as the starter connections

Can the camshaft position sensor be removed without having to remove the distributor

or am I just asking for trouble there

Could it be that the new battery that I put in bad? What is the easiest test to see if the new battery is retaining the charge

Again, I would like to thank everyone for the valuable contributions and the time you had taken in helping me

Nadi

-- nelkhour

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nelkhour did pass the time by typing:

On the 93 ZJ that answer is no. But it's not that hard to do if you take your time.

I haven't done a proper writeup but here is the basics

pictures.

**Did you clean the conections to the ground wire(s) ?? Did you check the coil and it's connections?

: Can the camshaft position sensor be removed without having to remove the distributor? : or am I just asking for trouble there?

***Unless there is some reason you think this is the problem, it makes no sense to tear things up to get to it. Unless you know what you are doing, if you yank a distributor, you will REALLY screw things up.

If you are not getting spark, keep following that path until you get spark. THEN if it doesn't work, go on to another theory. It's ill advised to just bounce from point A to point D without following the path through C to get there because point C is more likely than not the problem.

: Could it be that the new battery that I put in bad? What is the easiest test to see if the new battery is retaining the charge?

***There is, take it back to the place where you bought it and have them test it BYT if it's cranking the engine, then you have power.

: : Again, I would like to thank everyone for the valuable contributions and the time you had taken in helping me. : : Nadim : : : -- : nelkhour : : ------------------------------------------------------------------------ : View this thread:

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No, I didn't say that at all. You are taking another comment out of sync.

The ground from the battery to the engine must be good because the starter is turning.

If the ground to the body is bad, you will get no spark. This ground is a wire mesh cable that runs from the back of the engine head to the firewall or maybe from the battery negative to the fender or firewall. This is the one you need to bypass with the booster cable.

Mike

86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail >

but the same thing takes place. I need to get a booster cable to double check on the ground strap. I know Mike said that shouldn't be the problem since the car is cranking.

to see if the new battery is retaining the charge?

time you had taken in helping me.

Thanks for everyone again. Thanks DougW for the website and links to the pictures for the camshaft position sensor. It looks like the 92 is setup in a similar fashion to the 93 ZJ, where the distributor would have to come out. I am going to bypass the ground to the firewall with the booster cable first and see what happens

I will let everyone know what I find out

Again, your help has been very much appreciated

Nadi

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The 'far' more common CPS failure on those engines is the 'Crankshaft Position Sensor'. The cam sensor seldom fails on the early 4.0's.

The CPS plug and socket just get dirty. You can clean them with a spray contact cleaner that electronic shops sell or even use WD40. WD40 is a good electrical cleaner and water displacer.

The plug and socket for the CPS are located at the back of the intake manifold with the CPS at the top corner of the bell housing back there.

While you are cleaning plugs and sockets, I recommend you do the ones on the throttle body too. They all can benefit from a clean. I use dielectric grease on the plug seal skirts when putting them back together. The grease is sometimes sold as spark plug boot protector. It is the same stuff you put in plug boots so they don't stick.

Mike

86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail >

pictures for the camshaft position sensor. It looks like the 92 is setup in a similar fashion to the 93 ZJ, where the distributor would have to come out. I am going to bypass the ground to the firewall with the booster cable first and see what happens.

Pix for the Crankshaft Sensor location:

Note: Sometimes the sensor is on the passenger side but on this model it was the driver's side. If your is on the passenger side I am sure someone will send you a link to those pix

Mike and Everyone thank you very much for your help. I went ahead and changed the CPS 'Crankshaft Position Sensor'. This one is on the left hand side. Same proble

whenever the car is cold or has sufficiently cooled down

Like they say a picture is worth a thousand words. Therefore I have taken picture

of the battery, the ground connection to the engine, firewall, the mesh cable at th end of the engine to the firewall, the starter, distributor

Hope this would be helpful.

Thank yo

Nadi

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Hello

New symptomp that is developping now that was not there before. When driving, the car seems to be starving for gas and acts like it is going to stop. First it was happening when I reached 60 miles per hour. Now it is happening all the time when I start to pull up

It does not act as if it is starving for gas when I am sitting idle and just press on the gas

Also noticed oil leak from the back where the back drive shaft connects to the gear box

I think it is time to give up and take it to the dealer here in Doha

Thank

Nadi

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