Wheel stud lubrication - good or bad?

Yesterday was a semi-nice day, so I decided to catch up on some maintenance --oil and filter change (M1 the Puro 30001 sure works nice on a 4.0!), TB cleaning, new Puro air filter, front-end lube, powerwash engine and fenderwells, a quick run through the local car wash, the usual. Work is slow right now and I'm bored.

I later decided to go the extra mile and do a 4-wheel tire rotation and change out those el-cheapo OEM lug nuts with a good set of heavily chromed, forged steel lugs. While I had one side up in the air doing my thing, a neighbor commented on my practice of applying bearing grease to the studs before torquing the nuts down to 90 ft/lbs.

He claims that it's a bad practice, and that the lugs will loosen over time because of it. I politely disagreed, saying that it is the friction between the tapered nut face and the wheel that keeps everything tight rather than friction from fastener threadfaces, and that the only real way to get good, accurate, consistant torque is to put a TINY BIT of lubricant on the threads before reassembly.

I know this all sounds petty, but I'm wondering if anyone here has heard of mishaps that were the direct result of 'lug nut greasin'? I like knowing that the nuts will spin off easily many years later and won't rust up, no matter how much muck I plow through. And I make sure everything is cool to the touch before everthing gets tightened down

--all pretty common sense stuff IMO.

Am I offbase here? Admittedly, this is 'old-school' technology, but it makes a lot of sense to me, much like 'priming' the engine after an oil change before actually firing it up. (Yeah, I do that too; I disconnect the crank sensor, then reset the MIL when I'm done.)

-JD

Reply to
JD Adams
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Factory torque specs are for clean dry threads. Opinions on the web are strongly in favor of both positions. That said, I have always used antiseize so that they come off easier. The last thing I want to be doing in the middle of the woods is standing on a breaker bar swearing about a rusted up lug nut. I typically torque about 10 ft-lb less since less of the torque is being lost as friction, but this is just a guess on my part. YMMV

Reply to
jeff

I grease all threads, usually with never sieze, but often with grease.

I was taught that it was a sound mechanical practice and have never seen an issue due to the lube. This is especially important with dissimilar metals to prevent galling.

Reply to
B A R R Y

You are damaging the studs by over-torquing them. The lugs could snap because they have stress fractures or the nuts could come loose because the lug is stretched so not stable any more.

The specs call for a dry torque of 90 to 115 not a wet torque. The wet torque settings are a lot lower. I don't know them because I would never use them.

We were told/taught 'never' to use any lube on the lug threads when I worked in garages way back when. Not just one garage either, but coast to coast in Canada.

Mike

86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail >
Reply to
Mike Romain

another downside to grease is if it gets too hot, it will carbonize and make them stick worse. Probably not an issue on off road vehicles but performance cars can get their discs (and hubs) mighty hot under serious braking. clean and dry or maybe a little anti-seize...

Reply to
Clay

Ahhh yes, the camps are indeed split on this one.

I believe that what the Mfg. is looking for isn't a specific torque value, but rather the proper clamping force between wheel and rotor. By lubing the stud and torquing to dry specs, I agree that it's possible to stretch the studs too much.

Variances with prior galling, torque wrench quality and calibration, rusting and thread surface imperfections and relative temperature make exact tightening a crapshoot. I went with the low-end spec to avoid the stretch problem. I may drop them all down to 75 just to be on the safe side. I've never seen automotive studs break off from overtorquing, but I have defintely seen nuts spin themselves off from undertorquing, esp. when they're not rechecked after a few minutes of driving after being noodled with.

The anti-seize does sound like a better option than a dab of grease though, and it would not be affected by rotor heat.

-JD

Reply to
JD Adams

I agree. I normally use anti-seize on everything else; it must have been a brain-lazy sort of day. I'll use AS next time around though.

-JD

Reply to
JD Adams

I live in the rust belt where everything rots long before it wears out and always go dry with capped nuts. With open nuts, I have used grease on top after it is tightened down.

I have antiseize and use it everywhere else, but still not on wheel nuts.

We just had to remove all my wheels a couple days ago and they came off easily. It's been a while since they were removed....

Anyhow, just be aware that antiseize is considered a 'wet' torque.

Mike

JD Adams wrote:

Reply to
Mike Romain

An old Polish farmer I did some work for recommended water on truck and tractor lug nuts. It acts as an assembly lubricant, and then evaporates before the nuts can back off. On some metals it leaves a protective coating.

If you live long enough, you will hear most anything.

Earle

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Reply to
Earle Horton

Iron oxide (rust) *is* a protective coating

Reply to
Clay

Reply to
L.W.( ßill ) Hughes III

On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 21:34:28 GMT, the following appeared in rec.autos.makers.jeep+willys, posted by Clay :

Black iron oxide (ferric, IIRC) is semi-protective. Red iron oxide (ferrous) isn't; it's porous and the corrosion will just keep going.

Reply to
Bob Casanova

Reply to
L.W.( ßill ) Hughes III

Reply to
L.W.( ßill ) Hughes III

Well... I just had to google it. Lots of interesting info:

"Rust is really Fe2O3, a reddish form of iron oxide. Iron has another oxide, Fe3O4, which is sometimes called black oxide, black rust, or hammerscale."

Micaceous Iron Oxide Synonyms: Micaceous hematite, Natural lamellar hematite, Specular iron oxide, Micaceous iron oxide, Natural specular hematite ore Designations: Chemical Name: Micaceous iron oxide Chemical Formula: Crystalline *Fe203* Description: 1) A naturally occurring lamellar form of ferrous oxide for use in manufacturing paint coatings. 2) When viewed under an optical microscope by transmitted light, magnification X 200, the thin flake micaceous iron oxide particles appear as sharply defined red translucent platelets. 3) *Without doubt, it is the most important barrier pigment used in coatings to protect structural steelwork from corrosion. It has a 100 year record of successful use on many types of steel structures throughout the world.* 4) It forms overlapping plates like mail armor. It reflects ultaviolet light, allows water vapor to escape from the substrate, and is chemically resistant.

Reply to
Clay

That's what makes me believe, that this "dry thread" nonsense, is insane. Nowhere else have I seen torque tightening specifications, for "dry threads". It is always "lightly lubricated" threads. By the way, "those el-cheapo OEM lug nuts" that JD Adams is talking about, are probably designed that way on purpose, to spare the wheel studs from the kind of damage that those "heavily chromed, forged steel lugs" are going to be dishing out.

This is almost as much fun, as last night's Town Council meeting.

Earle

Reply to
Earle Horton

Reply to
L.W.( ßill ) Hughes III

In that situation, I would use PB Blaster prior to loosening to save the lugs. I can't see how grease, put on the threads after the nut went on, could possibly be a problem on a lug that won't see unthreading for 20 yrs. :)

tw _____________________________________________________________________

2003 TJ Rubicon * 2001 XJ Sport * 1971 Bill Stroppe Baja Bronco

"There is a very fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness'."

Pronunciation: 'jEp Function: noun Date: 1940

Etymology: from g. p. (G= 'Government' P= '80 inch wheelbase') A small general-purpose motor vehicle with 80" wheelbase, 1/4-ton capacity and four-wheel drive used by the U.S. army in World War II. _____________________________________________________________________

L.W.(ßill) Hughes III wrote:

Reply to
twaldron

How many people are at your town council meeting in Silverton? ;)

tw _____________________________________________________________________

2003 TJ Rubicon * 2001 XJ Sport * 1971 Bill Stroppe Baja Bronco

"There is a very fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness'."

Pronunciation: 'jEp Function: noun Date: 1940

Etymology: from g. p. (G= 'Government' P= '80 inch wheelbase') A small general-purpose motor vehicle with 80" wheelbase, 1/4-ton capacity and four-wheel drive used by the U.S. army in World War II. _____________________________________________________________________

Earle Hort> That's what makes me believe, that this "dry thread" nonsense, is insane.

Reply to
twaldron

Have you ever broken a lug installing or removing a nut? While I have never, ever lubed lugs, grease just seems incredibly heavy. Have you tried just a drop of plain machine oil?

tw _____________________________________________________________________

2003 TJ Rubicon * 2001 XJ Sport * 1971 Bill Stroppe Baja Bronco

"There is a very fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness'."

Pronunciation: 'jEp Function: noun Date: 1940

Etymology: from g. p. (G= 'Government' P= '80 inch wheelbase') A small general-purpose motor vehicle with 80" wheelbase, 1/4-ton capacity and four-wheel drive used by the U.S. army in World War II. _____________________________________________________________________

JD Adams wrote:

Reply to
twaldron

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