"Part P" Electrical regulations

And one has to ask what qualifications did Brunell, Faraday or Kelvin have. I strongly suspect that none of them would be considered for University Entrance due to lack od paper qualifications, despite oozing with experience.

AWEM

Reply to
Andrew Mawson
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In news: snipped-for-privacy@bt.com, Andrew Mawson wibbled :

ICBW but I think all three were time served apprentices.

Reply to
GbH

Actually, having enter University through (then) BTEC OND route, I can say that entrance can be done by negotiation based on experience, enthusiasm etc - even at quite posh (in computer science terms) universities like Kent and Exeter.

Richard

Reply to
beamendsltd

The problem is how do you exempt DIYers without exempting cowboys?, they'll just work in cash and if quizzed claim they were just doing a one off DIY job.

I've not come across any figures that either support or disprove that, but to put it into perspective:

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"Electrical leads, wiring and cables started 2,800 accidental house fires"

Knowing what I do from inside the trade I have to disagree... Greg

Reply to
Greg

But candles caused 1800! I guess they were being used when the electrical installation had failed.

For the purposes of our discussion how many of those 2800 were installed by 'qualified' professional personnel and how many DIY or otherwise 'unqualified'? Personnally I do not consider electrical installation as being a profession!

Reply to
GbH

You don't - the trade has to sort itself out, that's not my problem. Being forced to spend, unnecceserily large amounts of dosh on something I could do myself is my problem, and this Part P thing isn't going to make any odds - see Rouge Traders for CORGIs' behaving badly

As a percentage of how many, and of that percentage, how many were bodged DIY or professional jobs - those are the figures that really matter, suely? And, I suppose, since the quoted bit includes "leads" and houses are wired with cable, that implies quite a percentage are related to portable appliances. I think we are talking very small numbers indeed - way less than other causes, such as chip pans.

I wouldn't know. Just as most members of this group prefer to fix their own cars, I prefer to do my own elecrtics.[1]

Richard

[1] Just wait until DIY car repairs are outlawed - it will happen, Watchdog etc are already setting the stage....... the same arguments will be/are being used.
Reply to
beamendsltd

"GbH" wrote after Andrew Mawson wibbled :

Same thing happened with Osteopaths a few years back, the Govt set up a quango to oversee the trade, they then demanded all register and pay a large sum (couple of thousand or more from memory) and pay a further similar large annual sum to stay registered. However, even Osteopaths that were unqualified but simply practicing were allowed to register at that time, yet I know at least one well qualified osteopath that cannot practice now because they can't afford the costs to register as they only ever practiced part time (and did a lot of free work too). Of course the quango set up business in the heart of London in posh offices at huge cost not somewhere cheap.

Reply to
Bob Hobden

On or around 24 Jan 2007 00:48:35 -0800, "Greg" enlightened us thusly:

provided, of course, that the course is any good. Bearing in mind the fact that it was instigated by the government, I'd expect it to be shallow in knowledge and heavy on form-filling and box-ticking. I'd expect it to pronounce, for example, on the method of using a megger and the readings that constitute a "pass", without discussing any background theory about what's being tested. And so on.

If anyone can refute my expectations, I'll be only too delighted.

Reply to
Austin Shackles

On or around 24 Jan 2007 02:33:23 -0800, "Greg" enlightened us thusly:

in exactly those terms, you'd get a blank look from me, too. However, if you expressed them not as initials but as names, then a) I might know what they were, or b) I could doubtless find the information. Ignorance can be solved by seeking knowledge, provided you know that you need to seek it.

possibly. Then again, he could have studied the regulations and done a competent job. Agreed, it's hard to tell, but then again, that's what you (should) have inspectors for - and on a new build or a full re-wire, it should be possible to do the wiring but leave it accessible for inspection, then have someone come and inspect it as to whether it's satisfactory.

Reply to
Austin Shackles

On or around Wed, 24 Jan 2007 16:40:54 +0000, beamendsltd enlightened us thusly:

and don't let's start on the LPGA or we'll be here all night.

Reply to
Austin Shackles

On what basis do you say it wasn't working? - only 2 people electrocuted during the previous 12 months due to faulty installation as covered by Part P I believe. Unfortunately, so the story goes one was an MPs daughter.

Reply to
hugh

And knowing what I do as a customer who went around after the "professional" tightening up the loose connections when the new lights didn't work I think you are talking bollocks.

Reply to
hugh

In message , Austin Shackles writes

Oh yes let's do.

Reply to
hugh

In message , David G. Bell writes

I learnt mine at the University of Durham, becoming a PROFESSIONALLY qualified electrical engineer - but I am now not competent to install a bit cable.

Reply to
hugh

The 16th edition course is a bit like that, the exam being a multiple choice, but bearing in mind the typical mentality of your average sparky it would seem silly to get more complicated than needed 8-). The inspectors course is far more demanding, as it should be, with a proper written exam and a practical. Greg

Reply to
Greg

me, too. However, if

So does "Terra, Terra", "Terra, Neutral Separate", "Terra, Neutral, Combined and Separate" make you any more able to design the installation?. If you know what they are and what affect they have on the installation then you know what the abreviations mean since the regs refer to them constantly.

And the building regs department is required by law to provide that very service, that's why they need multiple visits to see what you've done before concealing it. Of course that is bound to cost so in practice it's usually cheaper just to, employ some one qualified and in a self certification scheme.

Incidentally that's what NICEIC, NAPIT etc mean, the sparky can self certify his own work to the building regs depertment.

Also, NICEIC allow firms with several sparkies can operate the same system with a qualified inspector checking the work of unqualified sparkies at each stage, though in practice the insurance companies have insisted that every employee has at least got the 16th edition. You could argue that a NICEIC etc should allow their members to do the certification for someone not in their employ, and it has been suggested that this is a restrictive practice, I may even agree with that 8-).

NAPIT require every member to be fully qualified as an inspector, and to have been aprentice trained or to pass an extended practical, so you know that the NAPIT sparkie is fully trained but a NICEIC employee may not be qualified at all!. Unfortunately the public don't seem to know the difference.

Greg

Reply to
Greg

It was suggested that any IEE member should have been automatically granted the status of a member of an approved scheme, most vigorously by those members!, and I believe the IEE lost a lot of membership because this didn't happen. What was not said is that even though the IEE wrote the regs most members have never seen a copy!. Many IEE members work in related fields so have little clue about wiring, so the suggestion was fundamentally flawed.

There were schemes created that these members can get into easily that restrict them to a a limited number of notifications per year, ideal for thiose doing a small number of jobs as an asside to their work, but I think these have been largely ignored. Greg

Reply to
Greg

That'll be:

INSPECTOR EXAM - Part P Fundraiser

---------------------------------- Section 1

---------

Obtaining Free Tea and/or Coffee

--------------------------------

1.a.1 Inspectors should, on arrival, a. Hint strongly that "it's a bit nippy out" b. Do nothing constructive untill brew is offered c. Leave immediately on emergency d. Demand payment 1.a.2 If there is evidence that cookery is being undertaken, the inspector shall a. Hint strongly that "the bacon smells nice" b. Do nothing constructive untill bacon butty is offered c. Leave immediately on emergency d. Demand payment

...........

Electrical Inspection

---------------------

2.a.1 The electical inspection should consist of a. Check every socket/junction box/fitting for correctness b. Look at a couple of socket/junction box/fitting's and shrug while looking knowledageble c. Calculate the odds of getting away quickly, thereby having time to tap someone else up. d. Demand payment.

Completeing the Examination

---------------------------

3.a.1 Upon statifactory completion of the examination, the inspector should a. Issue necessary paperwork, while sucking through teeth and muttering suitable phrases such as "more than my jobs worth" b. Chat to everyone whilst waving tea mug hintingly c. Slag off every eletrician/ builder/white van driver ever met d. (Saloon Bar Inspections Only)Hint that glass is empty and the misus isn't expecting an early return e. Demand payment.

Above observations based on ISO9000 inspections.

Richard

Reply to
beamendsltd

Unfortunately the people responsible for making the laws can't just say "that's not my problem", they had to try and do something about the cowboys, I suspect they were particularly concerned about the influx from the new EU member countries.

Yes, and until you can present those figures you can't justifiably say that fires are not being started by DIYers, I think the fire brigades would strongly disagree with you 8-).

Which is why the much hated PAT testing was introduced, and why it was widened to include all appliances not just portable ones, though business doesn't seem to have cottoned on to that much yet...

If it does happen I hope everyone puts the blame squarely where it belongs, on the heads of all the cowboys out there, because without them we wouldn't have the calls for action. Greg

Reply to
Greg

And how many non-fatal shocks, fires, etc ?. I've seen a lot of evidence that it was definitely not working, every house I've been involved with has had cowboy electrical work including nearly new houses by big names. It definitely needed something doing, whether part P was the best way is another matter, though I've yet to hear of a better solution.

The story has been twisted to support the anti's, as are the figures in this petition. The bill was almost complete when the said MP's daughter was killed by a cowboy electrician who didn't even know what was wrong with running a cable diagonally across a kitchen wall, under plaster, with no protection. Not surprisingly the MP then supported the bill, but it was going through anyway. The story has been twisted into "it's all vengeance because one MP's daughter was killed" which is total bollocks. Greg

Reply to
Greg

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