series fuel gauge

I have got a series2A and i have had trouble with the fuel gauge or sender since i've had it.the gauge would only read either full or empty or when
the fuel level got low it would bounce up and down. The landy has been switched to negative earth.
any how i changed the sender last night but nothing changed. Could it be the wires on the fuel gauge are wrong way round.
Thanks
Dave 63 series 2A 90 Toy Landcruiser
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It's a short in the electrical circuit or poor/non-existant earth. Use a meter to check.
Splitpin wrote:

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sender
when
Do you mean 'new' when you say you have changed the sender unit or changed it for another secondhand knackered one?

I wouldn't have thought so but going off the behaviour of the gauge and if it's a diesel sender unit it sounds like you've got the gauge connected to the low fuel warning terminal on the unit, are there two terminals on there?
Martin

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New one

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And the other question?...... Does it have two terminals on the tank sender unit?..
Martin
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Could it be a missing or faulty voltage regulator? Little thing about an 1"x1/4"x1/4" looks a bit like a ceramic resistor. Usually (on a series 3) attached to the back of the instrument panel.
Nigel
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I will check this out over the weekend.

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On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 10:41:10 +0100, "Splitpin"
my 2a has no voltage reg. it just means that once you start the engine and the alternator starts doing its business both the gauges move up about 1/4 of the scale. They dont fluctuate a lot just read high.
It means that my tank is really empty it still says about 1.4 full which has only caught me out once!
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Splitpin wrote:

Your problem could arise from the fact that there are two fuel guages and senders fitted to Series 2a Landrovers. The change was after vehicle suffix C about 1967 from 90519841 to 555835 with senders 519838 and 555844 (these are just the basic petrol ones - different for diesel and 109 station wagon). If you mix the either gauge with the wrong sender you will get the sort of result you are seeing. If yours is a 63 one, it should have the earlier type - but! of course it is possible to change the system from that originally fitted to the later one or vice versa, but both gauge and sender must be changed, and the later one also needs a small voltage regulator, in the 2a usually attached to the bulkhead behind the instrument cluster (and this attachment is also the earth point for the regulator, and if it is not a good earth, this will also cause strange results). In the Series 3 it is on the back of the speedo. JD
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sender
when
suffix
I disagree, if you mix the wrong types they will just read wrong, not "bounce up and down" as he says.
If yours is a 63 one, it should have the

It *is* the earlier type, the later gauge moves slowly and also the vehicle has been changed from positive earth which also suggests an early model.
but! of course it is possible to change the system from that

sender
in
not
Absolutely, they must be paired.
Getting back to his problem he says it reads either full or empty (but doesn't say whether empty when actually empty or vice versa) and when the level is low it "bounces up and down", which suggests to me that he hasn't got the later tank unit (if connected correctly) which would read empty when full and vice versa but has got a diesel tank unit with the gauge connected to the 'low fuel' terminal. Unless there's a dodgy connection (reads full) or shorting wire to the tank unit (reads empty) but those would be faulty for most of the time, not just when the "fuel level got low".
From his description of his problem I think it is rather pointless to pursue it further as he does not answer questions the answer to which would help with a diagnosis.
Martin
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Oily wrote:

As usual getting a decent description of the problem is harder than actually solving the problem. This has reminded me why I'm off the tools now.
--
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pursue
help
Same here, too old to be arsed with it. :-)
Martin
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On or around Mon, 16 Oct 2006 22:11:15 +0100, "Oily"

's not too bad on older motors - it's the modern stuff with all the electronics that bothers me - take the tranny, for example, with its Lucas Epic engine management. I daresay there's a diagnostic connector on it somewhere which you can plug in and it'll report what's wrong with it; but it's not going to be (easily) diagnosable with ordinary equipment.
I'm not against all the electronic systems, provided they're built with an eye to durability (and to be fair, the stuff on the tranny has nice sealed plugs which don't readily admit water to cause corrosion, for example) but it'd be a lot more useful in the real world which doesn't include dealerships and lots of money if the system had the ability to indicate its own faults.
This need only be a fault code which can be looked up provided the look-up list is readily available - but it needs to be comprehensive: it's no use having a fault code that says "engine management system faulty", it's got to say "crank speed sensor faulty" or "inlet air temperature sensor disconnected" or suchlike. I don't see why the things can't have this ability - the system has to be able to communicate with all its sensors and switches and actuators and so on, so it must know which one's not responding - all it needs is the ability to report accurately.
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Austin Shackles wrote:

Like the average Toyota - link 2 terminals in the connector under the bonnet (a bent paperclip suffices), turn on the key, and count the flashes of the 'Check Engine' light on the dash. It gives enough detail to track most problems down, and resetting the ECU memory is as simple as pulling the EFI fuse for 5 mins. Maybe LR can learn a bit from this.
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Austin Shackles wrote:

There is a case being talked about recently in Australia where a Defender under warranty was shipped about 2000km to the nearest dealer - it took a fortnight to find a carrier who would move it (plus trailer). The problem? faulty throttle potentiometer. What this case has done for the family in question and for Landrover credibility can only be imagined. No local mechanic was prepared to even look at it as none had the required software. JD
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to
Lucas
but
an
sealed
but
look-up
use
got
software.
A case of vehicle complexity costing them sales because they are too tight fisted to supply local dealers with essential free software, in other words, no backup. And don't get me wrong, I wouldn't have a car, I only use Landrover products.
Martin
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Oily wrote:

Not quite that simple - no local dealer, as Landrover in Australia has been cutting back dealerships to major cities - and in Australia these are a long way apart in places. (Although there was probably never a Landrover dealer within 500km of this location) But they are selling vehicles that can only be fixed by a dealer and trying to get round this by shipping vehicles back to the dealer, overlooking the fact that this is often easier said than done. In this case they would have done better to have flown in a mechanic with a test book - and waited the 24hrs for the next plane to get the part in, and the owner would have been on his way in a couple of days and it would have been cheaper for Landrover - but of course that is being wise after the event. Just as likely that the breakdown would have required a part not available in the country, a fortnight to get it from the UK - like the official position on a rear window for my 110 recently, which I found while looking for a S/H one at the nearest (non-specialist) wrecker, although heaven knows why he had a new one. But according to the official channels, two weeks ex-UK. JD
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On or around Tue, 17 Oct 2006 11:23:05 +0100, "Oily"

But it also highlights quite clearly that the diagnostics need to be on the vehicle. It's no use selling things as being capable of going anywhere if a simple problem immobilises it and can't be identified. Like EMB says about the toyota, only more so - it should be able to give a specific fault code that says "throttle pot out of spec" - the ECU *MUST* "know" this to be able to flag up a fault in the first place, how difficult is it, these days, to have it put it up on a simple little LCD display on the dash, either as a code (but in that case the list of fault codes MUST be freely available) or a simple message. CF the thing in another fred about the LPG vauxhall, which put a message on the display saying "stop the car and evacuate the cabin" because of a fault leading to an LPG tank venting. It can be done and it bloody should be done, and not to do it makes a mockery of the go-anywhere image.
ISTR that a disco 3 on test in Africa had to be shipped back to europe for similar reasons - no testbook avilable.
FFS, LR, build the diagnostics into the vehicle and make it a selling point: "In the unlikely event of a system failure, the on-board diagnostics will identify the failed component", for example. But that means that first-world dealers can't then charge 250 bucks a time to "diagnose" it and repair it, of course...
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Unfortunately it's not that simple (Ex-R75 disgnostics Engineer hat on). The ECU only holds data, and that has to be converted into information which is readable/understandable by users (particularly if its on the vehicle, as owners will play....). The major factor thought, is that the vast majority of possible faults aren't specific to the ECU. It could, for example, detect an injector fault - but is it an output trasistor failure (which the ECU could usually tell, on Lucas ones anyway), the injector (or part thereof), or a wiring fault, or duff fuel, or lack of fuel etc etc. ECU fault codes are only the very start of diagnostics, and to make sense of a fault code a multimeter, oscillascope and god knows what else is possibly required. You only have to look at the number of faults that auto boxes on 38a Range Rovers trigger that are nothing to do with it to see how complex things can get. And of course the 38a Front ABS Sensor fault which gets blamed sqaurely on the traction control .....
Richard
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On or around Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:11:05 +0100, beamendsltd

It could, though, put up a code that says "#4 injector not firing" and then you'd know what circuit to look at. similarly, for example, it could say things like "plenum temp sender out of range", which of course could be the sender, or a short-circuit wire, or an open-circuit wire... but knowing which circuit you want to be checking would make life a lot easier.

indeed - it's similar to traditional diagnostics, in a way: "#3 cylinder not firing". could be the plug, lead, dizzy cap, injector fault etc etc.
My point is that the ECU codes are only readable by (in LR terms) testbook (or, I assume, Rovacom and similar) and if you're 300 miles from the nearest such device, you're stuffed. If the fault codes were displayed on the vehicle (even if it says "#4 injector fault" and nothing more specific) then someone with just a mutlimeter etc. has a sporting chance of being able to fix it.

well, that, frankly, sounds like a programming issue. Granted, TC and ABS both use the same sensor, it should be possible to detect a sensor fault. How does the 'box trigger faults in other systems...?
Mind, it seems like the 38a is about the worst of the bunch, diagnostics-wise. ISTR that the disco III and next RR (forgotten the code) are simpler/better.
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