4x4 Environmentally Unfriendly?

But it is penalised Most of its fuel cost is tax and it uses double your car's. Its purchase price is higher. The tax on the purchase price is higher in real terms. The driver pays more tax. The road tax is greater. The tax paid on all the more expensive wear and service items like tyres is greater What more do you want? Blood?

Huw

Only when in violent physical contact and only relitively speaking. There are far more dangerous vehicles, like buses.

Not all. It depends on tyre and brake size relitive to mass.

Its all relitive. Keep pedestrians and people separate. Especially children and the elderly who are most likely to be involved with this kind of contact and who are most likely to recieve serious or terminal injury.

So do most new 4x4's apart from Land Rover Defender which is a legacy design.

This cushions the impact further.

Do let the owner of older 4x4's worry about this. It is purely their choice.

Deffinately out of fassion and not before time IMO.

Which is a gross oversimplification. Do they factor in that the average speed of 4x4's on the road is slower than average and the drivers more mature and all kinds of other things? Probably not. A major gripe, as I read it, is that many are used as town cars. This being the case it is hardly relevant that they could topple over in extreme manouvers at higher speeds. They are not sports cars for the most part and their owners should drive them accordingly.

Agreed. There are far more 4x4's owned than can be justified by their regular need. When has 'need' last been used as a justification for luxury goods though? Those that do have a need for the utility should not be penalised because of those that buy as a luxury though. They are already paying over the odds for the damn things.

Huw

I can't understand what is good about them, they general don't handle well either. Can we start making a list of things which are good about them? At least a list of the good points will be quicker than the bad points :-)

In general they promote a steady, unhurried driving style.

The driver arrives at his destination, far way, fresh and ready for work or play.

The upright driving style suits many and is now being mimicked by many cars.

The visibility is good, especially on the bigger ones which are increasingly fitted with rear view cameras.

They are roomy. Some can seat seven passengers.

They have a high payload capacity.

They can tow large loads and uniquely up to 4000kgs when properly equipped.

They have four wheel drive.

They may have hill descent control.

They may be luxurious.

They also have utility.

They have a high resale value due to demand from second and third owners which typically use their capability to a higher degree than first owners who tend to major on the luxury aspect.

Children tend not to be car sick in them due to the high seating position relative to side window height.

Dogs love them.

Children love them

Old people love most of them for their ease of access.

They have high ground clearance to clear obstacles.

They have large axle articulation to maintain traction over uneven ground

They have steep approach angle

They have a large ramp breakover angle to travel over crests

They have steep departure angles

They have dual purpose tyres to aid traction in difficult conditions

They have a statistically long life

The total Government tax revenue from each vehicle is well above average

The profit margin for the dealer is well above average

The profit margin for ancillary suppliers of such things as tyres is above average

Did I mention comfort?

Huw

what about 20 year old landrovers?

increasingly

Perfect for going down to Sainsburys and taking the kid to school :O)

Huw (hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :

Especially the ones which have a camera to get around the fact some plank's strapped the spare wheel across the rear window.

Blimey, Huw. If only "normal cars" could be luxurious...

They have tyres which try to do everything and so are a compromise in all conditions.

Translation - they're expensive to buy and run. How are these benefits for the owner?

Bollox.

Volvos. Saabs.

Cars don't need them. Apart from Primeras.

Zafira. Sharalahamrbraxy. Ulyseightohsixergie. Voyager.

Van. Doblo. Kangoo (etc...)

Indeed.

Impreza

Indeed.

Merc, BMW, Volvo, Cadillac...

???!???!????!!!

Fool's gold.

Bollox.

They seem to show no preference as to what to pee against.

Children love sweets, they're not good for them either. And they love puppies, which destroy their environment also.

Too high. Need a Zafira / Meriva / Agila.

As often encountered on England's major roads and urban streets.

Indeed

And comprimise handling, braking and safety on road

???!! Proof? I see more 10 yr old Escorts than I do 10 yr old SUVs. I see more 20yr old Minis than I do Landrovers.

I suppose if others will pay more tax then I don't have to...

Lucky them.

Lucky them.

Did I mention Volvos and Saabs?

OK. So basically if you drive off road, have gradients over 40%, tow 4 tonne trailers then get a 4x4. So what explains the other 90% on the road?

Reality is, and I'm not anti 4x4, in fact I would like one - hence this next statement. Buy what you want, and the rest of the world can shove their opinion of how you spend your money up their bottoms.

The message from "Tim S Kemp" contains these words:

Montego estate!

Guy King ( snipped-for-privacy@zetnet.co.uk) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :

Ah, student days.

Heh - 2cv... good ride, upright driving position, good entry / exit angles, luxurious (available with full length sunroof)... so who needs an SUV...

Much less likely to be knob-piloted than the huge bulbous drug-dealer variety, but often weilded by farmers, who have problems of their own.

Still, at least they have a valid reason for owning them.

Cheers,

Colin.

Tim S Kemp ( snipped-for-privacy@timkemp.karoo.co.uk) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :

You forgot one small detail...

Better off-road than any "soft-roader" and many big 4x4s, too.

And that's before you do this to 'em ->

Oh, god, I've got a 4x4. Shoot me now.

No, wait - it weighs a lot less than a ton and has a 600cc engine.

Did I say that every benefit was exclusive? No.

All tyres are a compromise. In general 4x4's offer a choice as to which compromise they lean towards. This cannot be said of most cars which anyway haven't got the range of abilities that allow or require such a choice.

They are not. These are benefits to the wider community and civil service. Benefits none the less. Altruism do you see.

Huw

Nice list of cars but why have one of each when a single Range Rover will do all and so much more?

How so? If it wasn't for the first owner devaluing the vehicle somewhat then the older vehicles would not be available for utilitarian use by the less financially privileged.

Well it was certainly the case with mine and many others I know of. However, since you seem not to own one, those with practical experience must bow to your 'knowledge' ;-)

Anti dog as well?

Irrelevant. Children love them and can see out of them and do not feel sick in them.

Some are higher than others but most are just right for them and others have adjustable entry height mode. And now you want another set of cars to do the work of one LOL

Where or whether a particular owner encounters such a thing is irrelevant. They have the capability and it is a benefit from time to time wherever the vehicle travels.

This depends on many things including the average speed of the different vehicles and the driver. Every vehicle model is different from every other [thank goodness] and should be driven accordingly, which they usually are, except for white van man etc :-)

Of course you do. Even now 4x4's only account for around 7% of the new market. 20 years ago the percentage was far less. Of greater significance is that you probably live in an urban environment where most of the 10 and 20 year old 4x4's which were bought new there [very few at that time] will have been sold to rural dwellers.

I don't see why you should not pay your fair share. The extra contribution from the 4x4 owner is entirely voluntary and need not be paid if they chose a cheap old runabout.

Undoubtedly a benefit to them and those that work for them. The auto industry is working to very low margins and profits are no more easy to come by than from any other business these days.

Among a long list of others, yes.

I would not go quite as far as that but there are far more important things to get your knickers in a twist about.

Huw

But can it tow 4 tons on a regular basis?

Seriously, if that is what floats your boat, great.

Huw

Huw

Huw (hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :

I don't need to tow 4 tons on a regular basis.

Nor do 95% of 4x4 drivers.

I do, however, tow the 2cv 4x4 on a Brian James car trailer though, behind the 2.0 petrol XM. Beautifully smooth.

A friend tows his behind his 1.9 (non-turbo) Diesel ZX. Naughty, perhaps - and I wouldn't for anything beyond a mile or three - but it pulls perfectly nicely.

I've also pulled a Disco out of mud with it.

The message from "Tim S Kemp" contains these words:

Not available without, IIRC.

Children's high seating angles are acheived with proper safety by ensuring children who are too short to see out of the windows use proper and approved and correctly fitted child seats.

No, got two. Oddly enough my comment was pro 4x4...

Repetition, deviation, hesitation...

Speaking from experience, my parents can get in my Zafira easier than they can the Suzuki, Frontera and the Rangey they tried. They don't have a car at the moment (but I wish they'd get a rangerover....)

oh no it isn't......

Look at the roadtests to see that Discos / Rangeys etc despite their many other advantages have vastly inferior stopping distances from normal speeds. Or are you suggesting that drivers of such cars should drive at 40 mph max everywhere....

Still at least I can pass them easier then.

There's more to margins and profits than the invoice price the salesman shows you to make you feel sorry for him. The only poor dealers are crap dealers. Dixons motor are the exception as they are crap, but not poor.