4x4 Environmentally Unfriendly?

Tell that to the kids. Mine also rode in various VW, Audi and Vauxhall cars at the time and in none of them could they see out when strapped in their child seats. I think you will find that this is common to many other cars. I had a Discovery at that time [1990] and the difference was pronounced and obvious.

Accurate in most cases nontheless.

Zafira is certainly a good height. My mother who is 75 has a shorty Nissan Terrano and finds it very easy to enter despite her diminishing stature. This is not an exclusive benefit any more than most others but if any combination of benefits suits a particular buyer, then great. If a Zafira suits your parents then great. Some would have them use public services exclusively. Not I. Live and let live.

Oh yes it is....... If it of little benefit today it can be perceived as a potential benefit for tomorrow. Whether it is specifically a benefit for a particular owner at a particular time, that is a different matter.

No. I am suggesting that they brake much better than several groups of other vehicles including public transport. You can judge a vehicle purely on braking distance if you like but there will be only one winner and that one will likely be completely impractical for most people. The best performing vehicle group in a brake test will likely be the lightest and fastest sports cars and I would not suggest everyone buys these. Anyhow 4x4's have a wide range of ability in the braking department and the heavier than average [for its class] BMW X5 brakes much better than most family saloons.

The profitability of most car dealers is not great. All you have to do is look at the turnover of dealers in most cities. Here today, gone tomorrow is how I would describe most of them whatever luxury and image they try and convey at the front of shop.

Huw

Guy King ( snipped-for-privacy@zetnet.co.uk) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :

Well, there's always the vans... (Relatively) solid tin above you.

Never had any problems, have done driving holidays across europe with them since they were very young (600-900 miles/day) in various cars and not had problems from any of them.

My dad was hospitalised last week because he tried to use a bus. They need another car (last one condemned by the MOT man) but haven't got around to it yet. Private transport is such a useful personal freedom I agree with you that it should be made as available for as long as possible.

Oddly, the best (from memory) are consistantly Lexus, Mercedes and Volvo, outbraking everything else other than Porsche.

The trend is to larger groups, but there are plenty of small dealers around here still making their way nicely.

Just noted these from the Top Gear bit about the new landrover discovery:

more chassis - two!! Ladder type /and/ monococque.

?Doesn?t go over bumps - it just flattens them.? - JC quote

It's heavier than a rolls royce phantom (the new one)

very under powered with jaguar turbo diesel - (the twin turbo td?!)

exceptionally thirsty in Jaguar petrol 4.2 form

- and not very practical even though it seats seven. My shiteBoX is more practical for seven.

cheers, James

It is actually a mono design with subframes. The rest is marketing speak.

Show business speak.

Single turbo in this application. Still, it's all relative. Compared with the previous version it is quite powerful and compared with the version before that it is nearly 50% more powerful. I would just say that it is adequately powerful for this type of vehicle in most circumstances.

It would be wouldn't it. This is the reason that the vast majority sold in Europe will be the more economical diesel.

And the rest of the program? He liked it didn't he? ;-)

Huw

I can only say that you had exceptionally tollerant children or they slept a lot.

Nasty, dangerous polluting vehicles that they are!

They need

That will be for the very long term in one form or another using one fuel or another barring global conflagration or conflict.

I was not overly impressed by the Lexus LS400 in the braking department. However most modern high end cars including that section of 4x4's now have emergency brake assist and stability control combined with abs which gives them a real world stopping performance improvement which is not reflected in the simple emergency stop test figures. Now light sporty cars fitted with these systems will always have the ultimate advantage but the real world stopping performance of many modern 4x4's put to shame the performance of saloons of only a few years ago, even compared to many available today without the systems fitted.

The trend is towards large groups of large dealers because the margins from selling cars are so low that large volumes need to be sold to create a meaningful profit. The large volumes allow a spread of overhead costs over more vehicles and facilitate the purchase of large volumes of vehicles by these groups at advantageous prices to themselves. Everyone in business recognises that an important aspect of selling at a profit is in the buying at the right price. All this is basic business economics. Getting bigger to survive as margins get tighter.

The small dealers are either struggling terribly or they sell higher margin vehicles like prestige marques and 4x4's. Cars that have a demand because either they present an USP or an image which people aspire to or a combination of both.

Huw

It's just a shame the inappropriate nature of the vehicle for use on public roads will likely cause loss of control in all but the straightest of lines or slowest of corners.

Just - he'd choose the XC90 for families, but the disco for serious off roading. But then he likes the GT40 as well, and that won't even get him to work on a full tank (75 miles ;-)

Really profound analysis there John. Not. I wondered what all those scrap heaps were at every bend LOL.

Huw

Neither of the small dealers I use are either struggling nor selling top marques - MG Rover and Vauxhall...

You laugh all you like. I know two people who have lost control and crashed them on public roads (rav4 and a shogun) and neither will have another. I can anticipate the reply already. That's some more profound anecdotal analysis there for you. They are inappropriate vehicles for general use on public roads, that's my opinion. I also have a mate who is into off-roading big time, he does not drive it as a run about.

Well the Vauxhall dealers here in rural Wales that look as if they are small independents are actually part of small to medium groups with multiple franchises. Most of the MG Rover dealerships have been swallowed in the same way or have taken over other franchises either on the same site or on others, again to gain volume in what is a, sadly, fast decaying marque. The biggest privately owned Rover dealership in West Wales, Greens Motors, who not long ago majored in Jaguar, Rover [Leyland et al] and Land Rover have had to take on Peugeot and Mitsubishi to maintain volume. Rover now takes on a very small part of their business, which also includes a fuel wholesale and white goods distribution business. Other, smaller dealers have either given up or taken on another franchise such as one which now retails Skoda. Rover has been relegated to one small corner of the old showroom. Usually they have one Rover and five Skoda in the showroom. Yet another prime site privately owned Rover dealer has dumped them in favour of a solus Land Rover franchise while the established Vauxhall multifranchise business has taken it on in an old gas showroom with room for one car only. Rover will have a hard climb out of this dark hole. I don't believe that they ever will. A sign of the times.

Huw

It is your opinion and you are welcome to it however absurd. I also have friends who own ordinary cars and who have had accidents. I personally have owned Jaguar and Audi sports cars among other exotic and mundane vehicles and do not find any one more dangerous than any other with certain caveats. They are all lethal in the wrong hands and driven without due care and attention.

Huw

Car-sickness is caused by bad driving.

Here is a question for those who believe that 4x4's should not be allowed based on the title of this thread being that they are "Environmentally Unfriendly"..

So lets say the government impose a ban on 4x4 vehicles..

This would mean a ban on the Audi Quattro, some Subaru's, Jags and many other cars as well since the 4 wheel drive system is seen as a "safety feature" now days..

So some of you will throw back that the ban is on the fuel consumption..

This would then mean that many sports cars would also need to be banned, a Lambo does about 10MPG and I would guess that Ferrari's, Bentleys and various others are not far off.. Should they all be banned as well?

So some might pipe in and say its the space they take up on the road..

Well there are estate cars that are as wide and longer than many 4x4's.. Are we going to ban those as well?

Maybe you want a ban based on engine size since most 4x4's have quite large engines..

So if we ban say anything over a 3.5l? Then we have to ban all the big Merc's and Beemers.. Where does it stop? In truth 90% of the time there is no need for an engine larger than a 1.6l (maybe even 1.4l with these modern engines making close to 100hp/l) but many like to have the power (actually torque) to accelerate fast which in itself is inefficient and damaging to the environment..

So the point I am making is that its not a particular class of vehicle or a certain type of person that is to blame for being "Environmentally Unfriendly".. We are all to blame.. In fact its our own nature we should be protesting against, the car manufacturers market "bigger and faster" and we buy it because that what appeals to pretty much all of us, if they tried to sell "smaller and slower" would you go for it?

I think the current rampage against 4x4's is just because they are an easy target.. Also I think that whoever started the whole campaign against 4x4's is probably jealous of their neighbor because they have a nice new X5 or something..

I think the better way to help the environment would be for everyone to drive sensibly and efficiently, keep your car serviced and maintained, not take the car if you don't have to (walking is good for your heart :) ) or plan to do more than one thing on each outing in the car.. Then probably the hardest one, when you come to replace your car get the model with the smallest engine and most compact size that will do the job you need it to do which will save you money, preserve the environment and help a little with congestion, or maybe try riding a motorbike (which I personally do) which would really make a big difference to all these factors since most car trips only have a single person in the car anyway..

Later..

And by your physical experience of movement not matching your visual experience of movement.

JohnR ( snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :

You ever tried a "proper" off-road 4x4 on-road? They're appalling. Terrible. Decent off-road tyres mean no grip, no ride quality. They stink because of all the festering pond slime inside. You get out filthy.

It's why the pro-"Chelsea Tractor" arguments "It's just as comfortable as a real car" and "It's really good off-road" are such a complete dichotomy.

You *CANNOT* take a modern electronic-gubbins leather-and-aircon-and-carpet

Sure, you can get the tyres a little muddy, certainly to the point where a

Disco and Defender 300TDis are MUCH more desirable among the muddy boys than TD5s - why? Because the TD5 has ECUs. ECUs don't like water.

Same with the "proper" Rangie and the P38.

JohnR ( snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :

You ever tried a "proper" off-road 4x4 on-road? They're appalling. Terrible. Decent off-road tyres mean no grip, no ride quality. They stink because of all the festering pond slime inside. You get out filthy.

It's why the pro-"Chelsea Tractor" arguments "It's just as comfortable as a real car" and "It's really good off-road" are such a complete dichotomy.

You *CANNOT* take a modern electronic-gubbins leather-and-aircon-and-carpet

Sure, you can get the tyres a little muddy, certainly to the point where a

Disco and Defender 300TDis are MUCH more desirable among the muddy boys than TD5s - why? Because the TD5 has ECUs. ECUs don't like water.

Same with the "proper" Rangie and the P38.

Is an unhurried driving style bad? Holds everybody up, and causes road rage etc. Anyway, most of the SUV's seem to drive right up peoples bumpers :-(

Anyway, next time I try towing a lorry with my 899cc Seicento, I'll realise that I should've got an SUV ;-)