Brake lights

LOL - know what you mean, I usually get the stare that says "what do you mean? MY car is perfect" I sat behind a clio at the lights today which has a most Ford Sierra like display of lights. With his brakes on and indicating right, he managed to flash both brake light and indicator on the right side, plus both reverse lights came on in sympathy, flashing on when the indicator flashed off. I was mesmerised.

Yes, but how do you do that? Do you drive around with a megaphone?

Blue lights a fluorescent jacket and a siren

Hmm. Suppose that you have 3 brake lights as many modern cars now have. Would two of them working be sufficient?

AFAIK only if the two rear light cluster brake lights were operating. If one and a high level were working it would still be an MOT fail.

Yes, as long as it is the middle one that has gone.

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If the high level light is there, it must work for MOT. You can take it off if it doesn't work, but if it's present it must light up or it fails.

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additional stop lamps are tested and this includes high level brake lamps. These are usually mounted in spoilers or rear parcel shelves. Since these lamps are over and above the current legal requirements (I know that EEC legislation makes these compulsory on recent vehicles but this has nothing to do with the MOT test at the moment) they are treated more leniently. For example, if a high level lamp is not working, the tester needs to establish whether it's connected because if it isn't then its not a lamp in the eyes of the Law. Deciding whether the lamp is connected is of course virtually impossible because the wiring is under trim panels, headliners etc so the upshot is it gets ignored (pass and advise). If the lamp doesn't work because it is obviously defective, e.g bulb blown, wiring broken etc then it fails.

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I disagree that there is any difference in how any light is treated - the MOT test does not distinguish between 'original' and 'additional' lights in how they are tested. Reading this site, you might think that one high level lamp plus one 'original' light is in fact OK so long as the other brake light is removed or disconnected. As you have two working brake lights it seems OK, but then there is this in the testers manual:

"Note: The precise position of stop lamps is not part of the inspection, but, where two lamps are fitted, check visually that each lamp is located at about . the same height, and . the same distance inboard from the side of the vehicle"

And would therefore fail on this point:

"f. obscured or obviously incorrectly positioned"

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I'm not sure what you mean Bob, but if you had the centre one working and only one side one working, it fails. If you have both side ones working but the centre one doesn't it "could" pass. My old Volvo 240 once passed with its centre brake light out. I was advised that it was and to replace the bulb, but the guy was happy to pass the car. The MOT may have tightened up since, I don't know.

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Just had a thought, the LED brake lights pass even though some individual LEDs are out, as long as one still functions it's a pass. That will cause ructions when selling a car !!! I've seen a few already with a couple of LEDs out. I thought they were meant to be everlasting?

Nothing is everlasting (entropy takes care of that), but LEDs can have service life in the 100,000 hour range.

But many multiple-light high level brake lights are actually a set of filament bulbs rather than LEDs.

Yes - it fails because you now have two lamps, incorrectly positioned. It's also possible that you failed because you have a third, non-working light, if it is established that this is connected.

If you have both side ones working but

Yes - it could pass because you now have two lamps, correctly positioned. It's also possible that you have a third, non-working light, if it is established that this is connected, exacly as the previous case, so you could pass or fail, depending on circumstances.

My old Volvo 240 once passed with

I don't think so. There are notes which cover 'additional stop lamps' and 'high level stop lamps' which clarify the situation. The only way your non-working light can have correctly passed is because the tester was unable to establish whether it was connected (and a disconnected lamp is not a lamp, as far as the test goes.) The section about high level lights clarifies that it is not necessary for all bulbs in a multi-bulb unit to work - but this would also apply to the obligatory lamps, which are now appearing in LED form on some vehicles.

And the MOT does not distinguish between LEDs and filament bulbs, so as long as the light (as a unit) works, that's fine for MOT - one bulb is enough. As for selling - a few blown LEDs is just another bargaining point, same as a scratch on the wing or a doggy smell. One of my friends once bought an Escort which had previously been owned by a shepherd and used to ferry both sheepdogs and sheep. It was very cheap, and quite nice if you held your nose.

Cheers Bob, that about covers it. My Mot guy is very sympathetic to my cars, cos he knows I'll sort out whatever is wrong. If it is something that is dangerous he will fail it, but if it is something that is minor, he will "tch" and tell me to fix it.

positioned.

Just had another thought. If new cars have LEDs in all the brake lights, and all have multiple LEDs to make up one brake light eg. ten individual LEDs in each light, left, right and centre, and the MOT accepts failure of individual LEDs in a cluster, we could get to the point where only one LED is working in each cluster. This would presumably still pass the MOT but be pretty feeble looking if you are behind one of these cars in daylight. Could this happen?

positioned.

Yes, they are rare but great when you find them. I use a small garage near my parents, have done for years. I have been the 'tester's assistant' on several occasions :-) and a few things have been frowned at and let pass -like on one occasion my homemade numberplate, which wasn't quite regulation. He's also failed me for a small hole in the exhaust, then promptly got the welding torch out and patched it before writing out the pass certificate.

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Well, the book he say: "The lamp is one unit, so as long as at least one of the light sources illuminates when the brake pedal is pressed the lamp is deemed to be working"

But the book he also say under reasons for rejection: "b. is incomplete, not in good working order or in clean condition, ie so damaged or deteriorated that its function is impaired."

So I would interpret that to mean that the number of LEDs/bulbs is unimportant, but if it's not subjectively bright enough then it will fail anyway (just as it would if filthy dirty.)

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Testers assistant - yep. That's saved me a lot of grief over the years. Best let off I had was when he put the car on the rollers to test brakes, the handbrake cable snapped, he put it in park (this was an auto) gave it a brief spin and announced that the car would hold on a hill, but better replace the cable soon. As I watched him do it, the rear brake lights were on all the time. I'd better replace it before the next Mot. The only thing he never lets me away with is emissions, if that fails I've had it, no chance of leniency. God bless him.!!!!