Learners allowed on motorways from 2018

Motorway tuition should be compulsory. My instructor made me return home by motorway from my sucessful test. Motorway standards have dropped noticeably, partly, I believe, from the introduction of lanes that become slip roads, encouraging the use of lane 2 at least, just to remain on the same road.

Don't get me started on middle lane hogs. I'm very inclined to favour the US system to allow passing on either side. OTOH you can easily get ticketed for excessive lane changing over there.

We currently have the worst of all possible worlds with middle lane hogs, relatively polite brits queuing up to pass legally leading to very long tailbacks in middle and overtaking lanes, plus the 5% of aggressive weavers and undertakers that piss us all off.

One problem with making it compulsory is that there are many parts of the country where simply getting to and from a motorway would take much longer than an entire lesson slot.

I didn't have any problems with motorways, as I drove all over the place at weekends with my father and did many, many miles on dual carriageways which were very similar, but again, they are not available everywhere.

Yes. It is very easy in heavy traffic to find that your lane exits and then have a struggle to get over a lane when yours slows to a crawl, but the next does not.

SteveW

[...]

One reason I find difficulty with junctions of this type is the lack of consistent signage and road markings.

The 'smart' motorways use these types of junction almost exclusively, and will lead to even more drivers staying in lane 2 when they shouldn't.

Chris

Quite, I live in Burton upon Trent, A38 and A50 to the M1 is about 25 min. One junction up M1 and back to Burton would be a full hour. But instructors often have back to back lessons the learner drives to pick up the next student and then the next student drives them back home. Only way to do full loop in 1 hour would mean shanghaiing the previous student and being late for next pick-up.

Everyone being taught in the area gets to go on 70mph A38 though the top of Burton. It has one of the most dangerous exit slip roads in the country. The 20mph U turn on the north east exit gets a new barrier every month and sometimes every week. There have been occasions when 3 people get to share the cost. It says SLOW, SLOW, SLOW and SLOW on the road and they mean it. There are deaths about once a year at the entrance to Claymills road and the A38 southbound slip. https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.8376848,-1.6117312,279m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en Anyone from Great Yarmouth has a 1 hour 37 min trip to Cambridge to use the M11. Duxford, Girton and back to Great Yarmouth is 186 miles taking

3 hours 37 min. Quadruple lesson just to drive 1 junction on M11.

I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing.

==

I am not sure either given the way some drivers perform on the motorway.

Centre lane hogs are my greatest bug bear. Shall I overtake or undertake ...

I thought police were meant to be cracking down on this? It doesn't seem to bother those I come up against:(

I liked this bit very much:

"learner drivers will be tested on their ability to use a sat nav."

Also:

"Drivers will also be expected to answer vehicle safety questions while on the move and complete 20 minutes of independent driving rather than 10."

It might protect us against the young drivers who are having a laugh with their pals or are otherwise distracted!

Many times whilst coming round a fairly empty M25 late at night (11pm

-) I've come across a lone vehicle (often an SUV / 4x4 or a Nissan Micra ) being driven at around 60 mph in lane 2.

Not wanting to undertake nor get in the outside lane because I'm only going a bit faster than them and where you often find cars going 'silly fast' (because the road is otherwise empty), I sometimes (if up for a social experiment) just pull into lane two and sit behind them (appropriate distance etc) and see what they do. *Sometimes* they will pull back into lane one and I'll overtake and return to lane one, only to see them pull back out into lane two as soon as I've gone past?

Alternatively and from a fair way back (and assuming the are the only other cars on the road at that point) ... I'll indicate (when I'm only indicating to *them* etc) to go into lane two, indicate again and get into lane three, overtake them, indicate again to go back to two and again to one, hoping they might get the message. They rarely do.

I have never understood the rationale of how someone thinks it's acceptable to break the rules (or best go against the guidelines) like this simply because it makes it easier for them personally ... easier because they aren't sufficiently competent potentially?

Cheers, T i m

I tend to quietly undertake them, and less than one percent subsequently move to lane 1. But this is becoming less safe to do, due to the loss of hard shoulder (just in case they change lanes as you undertake)

Quite.

I will also do that when there is at least a bit of other traffic about as you might then be able to get away with the ... 'In congested conditions, however, you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right' ... bit. ;-)

It amazes me, still traveling in lane one ... that I can still see them in lane two just before they go out of view in my mirrors?

I wonder how difficult it would be, considering how good the camera / APNR technology is these days that if there isn't a vehicle registered in lane one for a reasonable time before or after something goes though in lane two they get sent a little 'reminder' of the rules of the road (at least and especially if this is activity is corroborated by other cameras along the way)?

Cheers, T i m

When I drive a van I confess to either undertaking with a very careful eye including ensuring there is an empty hard shoulder ahead, or simply stay behind them on full beam after a couple of flashes.

Ones that stay in the middle lane after being flashed they typically become unnerved and swerve a little. Shame there isn't a hotline to report middle lane hogs. After say 10-20 complaints they get a free driving retest and ban if they fail.

Forgive me, didn't the article say learners will be allowed on motorways, not that it will be compulsory? As you say for many it would not be practical.

More likely, Middle Lane hogs stay in the middle lane after you've flashed them because they have just paid their annual sub to the MLOC, and therefore have every right to be there.

+1. After the initial announcement that the police were going to vigorously prosecute middle lane hogs, I've only ever heard of one report of them doing so. [IIRC, it was quite well publicised.]

When I drive a van I confess to either undertaking with a very careful eye including ensuring there is an empty hard shoulder ahead, or simply stay behind them on full beam after a couple of flashes.

Ones that stay in the middle lane after being flashed they typically become unnerved and swerve a little. Shame there isn't a hotline to report middle lane hogs. After say 10-20 complaints they get a free driving retest and ban if they fail.

==

If only ...

I'm not sure I'd associate any particular issue with any specific age or gender but of course the stats might suggest otherwise. ;-(

My Mum took and passed her test (first time) when she was 50 but whilst she would then go from home a couple of miles to the (same) shop and back, she rarely (if ever) when anywhere else or any further.

One of the first drives our daughter did after passing her test (at

22) was from London to Scotland (albeit with a competent co-driver alongside her). That said, she had been riding a motorbike for 5 years before that so was already reasonably road aware. ;-)

I think the sometimes lack of 'connection' between people and what they are navigating (amongst other people, people that are often completely unprotected from them) is a function of what vehicles have now become for many?

Like, when I was a lad (I'm now 60) it was uncommon for anyone trying to get their first car to be either happy with what they got (ex / shared family car) or that they had to spend some time / personal effort 'sorting out' something they bought cheap. In so doing they often learned an appreciation for both mechanics, costs (so value) and some pride / responsibility towards the whole car ownership / driving thing. Of course there were those who had access to a nice car that needed little attention and others who stole stuff and wrecked them etc.

Most of my mates were like me ... got the best they could afford that was the best compromise towards when they really wanted (had they had the choice) and then they made the best of it or closer to what they wanted with their own modifications. In most cases these modifications could only be achieved by then knowing that a brake caliper from a different vehicle could be made to fit theirs whereas whilst some of that still goes on amongst some, must of it is now bought as an 'upgrade kit' from a commercial supplier. No climbing round a stack of cars in the scrap yards for them. ;-)

So, now cars are often just an extension of our houses (or better as few UK houses have aircon) and an extension of our music lounge ... there is a greater possibility of drivers becoming even more isolated from the real world outside.

Plus if you had a serious accident in a car when I was a lad you often didn't survive to do so again. Not so these days when people can, though being distracted, incompetence or straight recklessness have a major crash and just walk away.

The thing is, modern cars don't really lend themselves to being modified (in the way many did in the old days I mean) and the insurance premiums add to that as well.

So in a way I can understand that if you add that to the relative cost and availability and assumption that everyone can and will drive these days, the car is no longer the 'special position for most and so just becomes another commodity like a fridge or a sofa.

And that brings us round to why some may treat their responsibility to driving similarly ... where it seems to be secondary to listening to their music, mucking about with mates or distracted by their kids etc.

Most people wouldn't consider picking up a chainsaw and using it but many of the same seem willing to drive a car on the public highway? [1]

Cheers, T i m

[1] Except my sister. She took and passed her driving test when she was about 25 ... and whilst she did drive a bit at the beginning (again, not very far or often) and she's insured on their current car, she prefers not to drive because she doesn't want to ever be responsible for hurting (or worse) anyone else (by making a mistake whilst driving etc).

[snip]

Many of us think it should be compulsory.

In the same way as it should be compulsory to demonstrate several years riding a motorbike before being able to apply to learn to drive a car.

I often see many more cars in the outer "fast" lane that in the middle lane. Sometimes a huge gap in the middle lane with 5 cars in papallel in the outside lane which could easily move over. Why are these drivers not frawned upon? Why are only the middle lane drivers considered dumb? Most accidents happens in the outside lane and this is because they often tailgate. Last accident I saw on M4 involved 5 cars; nice new car models which are now worse for wear...

Hmmm. My advice is never to indicate anything unless it is traccfic related, i.e. an expected action. You never know in what spirit it's being received. As far as I'm concerned, I ceratinly ignore any attemp to interfere if it's not to do with traffic, and there is no rule which says you should flash when you are frustrated, that's not a traffic rule. I don't know the flasher, so why should I care?

That said, we are all responsible for smooth and safe flow of traciic, we should all accomodate a little where necessary.

If someone

is blocking your progress, then

that is called the overtaking lane.

That's very unusual. They usually don't let the pupil drive after a test because they are either too excited or too upset.