What can you say?

I drove 191 years ago on a trip to AZ, coming in on 78 from NM. I was actually feeling carsick by the time I got off 78 from the endless roller-coaster ride. 191 I don't remember as being particularly fun (and of course I didn't drive the northern portion) but I do have a strong memory of driving over the pass towards Safford when suddenly an extremely loud noise rapidly built up - I had about 2 seconds to decide some kind of semi was about to drive over me from the rear, when I saw the jet fighter break out of the overcast just above me and thunder off towards Safford. Scared the bejabbers out of me, it did!

miker

Damn you're old.

ROFL!!!

"Chris D'Agnolo" wrote in news:dc3c8$44c591fa$471d4b96$ snipped-for-privacy@ALLTEL.NET:

I've been over both. US 191 (formerly 666 but changed because of religious idiots) is a fun road with lots of curves. The Tail of the Dragon is a mostly straight boring road by comparison.

It's best attacked from the south end, where the speed limit is marked (white sign) as 10 mph, so they won't need yellow SAFE SPEED signs on every corner. For the first ~30 miles, you won't use third gear much, and fourth not at all; some of the hairpins require first. Treat it as a high-stakes autocross and you may not survive: with no guardrails, this is no place to overcommit. Watch out for sections where the outer lane has fallen into the canyon!

That 30 miles will leave you exhausted, mentally if not physically. The rest of the journey is more relaxed, a beautiful, twisty drive through mountain scenery. Very little traffic--we always see more deer than cars.

Greetings,

Where you say "It's best attacked from the south..." are you talking about US 191 or Tail of the Dragon?

tia, Steve (99 Black & Tan)

"Steve Vernon" wrote in news:bJWdnTXo-7_rxlvZnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@comcast.com:

I don't know what Lanny means but I've almost always started 191 from the south. In the summer it takes you from desert to mountains and it's much cooler at 9,000 feet (Hanigan's Meadows) than it is at 3,400 feet (Clifton).

You really don't want to do 191 in the winter although I've usually done it on a motorcycle, maybe with a heater it might be better?

As for the Tail of the Dragon, I've never done it in a car.

US 191. Deal's Gap has too much traffic (especially slow Miatas) and too many cops to be attacked properly. Those days are probably gone forever.

Lanny Chambers wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com:

We can't all have white ones....

I think you're exaggerating the situation a bit. During 'big' weekends, and in the prime time of the day, yes, you're most likely to be held up at some point but, even on the MATG 05, I was able to go early morning and to a lesser degree, late evening and get a good "up and back" run. The scary part is that some big trucks, trailers, RV's and so much more occasionally come through there in the 'off' hours and sometimes badly cross the center stripe! Now that's scary.

XS11 is HEAVILY EXAGGERATING or he's just never been to the gap. Nothing makes it seem straight or boring by comparison!

Chris

"Chris D'Agnolo" wrote in news:6eb4f$44c6daeb$471d4b96$ snipped-for-privacy@ALLTEL.NET:

You've not ridden 191 or any one of hundreds of western highways if you think Deal's Gap is anything special. I've been on dozens of roads that are twistier. Beartooth pass, Snowy Mountain pass, the road up Mt. Evans, The Salt River Canyon, White Spar Road, etc. etc. etc.

I found Deal's Gap a massive disappointment, I'd not been over the road for many years and I'd forgotten just how tame it is... very scenic but not much of a challenge on a motorcycle. Just the normal Saturday morning ride to Tortilla Flat has more turns per mile than Deal's Gap and the turns are much tighter although the interesting part of the trip is fairly short...

By the same token, you'll need to experience the elevation changes and sheer dropoffs of US 191 before you can evaluate the degree of exaggeration. The road crosses a couple of mountain ranges. REAL mountains, not those eastern hills.

If US 191 has that many more turns, and "much" tighter ones than the turns at the Gap, yet also has sheer dropoffs, then this sounds like an extremely dangerous road to be doing highly spirited driving on, much less going almost all-out.

I don't want the drive to be boring, which the Gap was not by any means, but I don't want stupid driving either.

Deal's Gap isn't exactly a safe road, only two lanes and lots of trees to hit if you are forced to suddenly leave it. I wouldn't want anything to make it more dangerous. It is a public road, after all, with normal drivers, not a racetrack with professional drivers.

Besides which, Indy car drivers don't need the possibilty of falling down a mountainside for excitement, and neither do I.

Pat

Thus my caution against outdriving your visibility. Between debris on the road and roadway that's simply disappeared downslope, overcommitment is natural selection looking for a place to happen. But there are plenty of places where you *can* see far enough ahead to have some real fun.

Ok, I can agree with that.

What I can't agree with, and it wasn't your statement, is that ANY public road makes the gap seem straight and boring. (traffic is a separate issue, we are talking about the road itself)

Besides being located in the most beautiful part of the country that I have ever been to, (those Eastern Hills), I just don't think that people would gather there in so many different car and motorcycle groups if it was boring. Everyone that I have personally talked to that has driven it has said it has been a blast as long as they drove it at the right time and didn't get stuck behind someone going slow.

If the road was curvier or had sheer dropoffs, it would have just required driving slower to be at least somewhat responsible on a public roadway.

You already have to exercise extreme care when driving Deals Gap to avoid head-on collisions and running into trees, even if XS11E has driven roads that make it look like a stretch of West Texas highway by comparison. (yeah, right)

Pat

pws wrote in news:8iKxg.9046$ snipped-for-privacy@tornado.texas.rr.com:

Yes, so is Deal's Gap so are most city streets, so is your driveway.

There was a waterfowl dealer in Tucson who organized a group of his customers and every year they'd take their Ducs and Geese (Ducatis and Moto Guzzis) to the Ruidoso rally over 191 (not the best way but the most fun). Every year the ride would turn into a race and every year they'd lose one or more bikes, a couple of times they lost riders. That's possible to do on any road.

If you go faster than you know how to ride/drive you're going to crash and it doesn't make any difference what road you're on.

Hey, on one of our August trips up 191 we chatted with a couple of Guzzi riders at the gas station (you know, the only one south of Alpine). It was late in the day, and I'm guessing they were rally stragglers not trying to keep up with the crazies. We admired their bikes, they admired our Miata.

I used to live on the edge of the Rockies and did this several times when I was (much) younger. Once on a vt500 Honda on Going to the Sun Rd in Glacier park I failed to notice the big "caution 15 mph" sign indicating a

It was just a little thing and it was over in a flash. But I was right at the limit with no room to spare. I could have just as easily ended up under the wheels of that motorhome, just another dumb kid going too fast.

I was a careful rider and never had an accident. But I could have. It can happen to anyone. A small lapse at the wrong time is all it takes.

So we agree on something, though my driveway is much too long to be very dangerous regarding vehicle wrecks unless you were to try to crash. It would be impossible for a car to wreck into it from the street and get anywhere near the house or garage. You may have noted that I said that Deals Gap is not a very safe road.

Of course they did. Professional racing is not safe, road racing is even less so. The difference is that pro racers know the score and are only sharing the (usually closed) track with other people who have agreed to take the increased risks. It is when that road racing causes a wreck with a vehicle that was taking no part in the racing activities that it becomes very uncool.

True enough, but if the person does lose it, whether due to driver error, mechanical error, or something like hitting an animal, grinding against a guard rail is probably preferable to taking a long plung over a cliffside.

Pat