Smart technology to outrage motorists!

Not to mention that the same representatives and senators that will NOT let us go into a private system, have themselves for years opt'd out of social security......do as I say, not as I do........sometimes, I think we need a 2nd American revolution to get the mess in DC fixed.

Absolutely.

Want to see half of America's troubles go away within a month? Take away those guys' golden parachutes and health care and put them all in with the rest of us. It's incredible how these guys live compared to us little people.

Joe Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies Black '03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC

Name withheld by request wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

do........sometimes,

That's due to a failure to keep right except to pass.

False. The autobahn has a lower fatality rate than the US interstate.

They can keep right. Like 2CVs on the autobahn.

Wrong. When a speed limit is posted properly, the blind obedence types speed up, and the faster drivers will slow down a tad to be legal. Rate of collisions go down.

No they aren't. Anyone who has reviewed the actual material on the subject rather than parroting the speed kills propoganda knows this.

Here's a short list of reading materials online:

Guess you don't understand the term 'vast majority will obey' is not the same as 'everyone approves every last detail'.

You said obeying the speed limit should be rewarded. That's all I claimed you said, and you did post that. Read above, I only claim you stated it should be rewarded.

"Brent P" wrote in message news:GynIc.71622$XM6.52281@attbi_s53...

This is what you said.

*There is nothing morally superior about obeying an improperly set speed limit that was a number someone pulled out of their ass. Where the motivations behind it are most likely to generate ticket revenue or please the neighborhood busy-body at the end of the street. *

YOU assumed it is "improperly" set. Or do you regard ALL speed limits improperly set? State your position, don't just start hurling sanctimounious crap out to get a rise in people. Otherwise I'll think you just have an axe to grind. Nowhere did I state there was any morality involved, you made that jump to hyperspace. This is a different argument.

Granted maybe I didn't make my original point very well but it was really aimed at using this technology positively rather than negatively. To start infering that my viewpoint is in line with something "immoral" is most certainly going to get me to " speak up when someone starts claiming", to paraphrase you. I certainly don't ever want to discuss seat belt or helmet laws with you that's for sure.

What I was trying to say was that if you set the lights at a certain speed, inform the public what that speed is ( most likely the limit, go figure?). It would still be up to the individual to drive at what ever speed they choose ( nothing has changed there) Once again I'm with you on the arbitrariness of those speeds. I was not stating what that speed should be ( again this is hypothetical anyway) but regardless the traffic will flow better. That's the "reward" not stopping at every damnable light! There happens to be a one way system in a nearby town where I live where this system is in place. It is on a large highway that is forced through a downtown area. They use this system and it works very well at keeping the traffic flowing. I don't recall the speed limit put it is probably 30 mph as it is in a older downtown area but they tell you on a sign. Imagine that INFORM the public! Normally the speed limit is what it is and the lights are set at what they are set so you'll have some people doing the limit others speeding etc. etc. and what you get is just a big mess like it is now in most metro areas. Does that sound like your plan? Nothing new is brought to the table. Believe me this stuff is going to be installed, bet money on it. What would be nice is if there is an actual measurable benefit in traffic flow ( positive) rather than just another way to collect more fines from more anxious speeding motorist trying to squeeze the next red light or just plain trying to stop them with red lights (negative). The great thing about systems like this is you can dial ANY speed into the programming. Whether they actually do one that is to yours or my liking is highly doubtful I'll concede. But again this is a different argument on that you seem bent on bring to this discussion. And again we are both on the same side of that one.

It is also a pretty safe bet MORE cars are hitting the road. So all yours or my bleating isn't going to change that. If you want to think otherwise I have some nice rosey glasses for you. If you think there will be a big rise in speed limits soon you may want chack to see if monkeys are flying out your butt also.

If you want to get into a technology/morality issue wait till RFI tagging hits the major stores. Then there won't even be any poorly paid checkout jobs at Wallys world anymore. You'll save more money though, as you just check it out yourself! Isn't that what it's really about? Money? But then again it happened to the wool workers in England hundreds of years ago so what's new? It's coming, you don't have to embrace it but you'll be living with it and being a Luddite has very little future.

StuK

Here's another one.........want to get the tax code fixed? Heck, ask about 3/4 of the population what they get paid, and the usual answer is "I take home xxx".......No, that's not what I asked, how much do you make? They usually have a "what are you talking about look on their face". The stupid FICA tax has condtioned the population into not even bothering to know how much they get stolen. Want to really screw up washington? Eliminate the FICA withholding, and force the citizens to write a check to the government every month. Boy, that would shake it up. But since the good ole boy network mostly consist of lawyers and career politicians (something the writers of the constitution wished wouldn't happen), I doubt that will change in my lifetime.......

Whatever it is, the two don't mix. Human nature fills the gaps in all lanes. Always does.

I didn't say anything about rates. This chart shows averages. It doesn't have pictures of the carnage that results when someone travelling well above the recommended 80 mph misjudges a vehicle travelling at that speed or less.

2CV's have no choice but to stay right. Once again, you are ignoring human nature. Every Honda is a Ferrari in disguise, and nobody likes being passed by a car they have already passed.

Once again, they are talking about average speeds. The argument here is the statement you made about "the will of the people" setting the proper limits. Allow me to quote a line from this very page you linked: "The lack of consensus on how to establish safe and reasonable speed limits has led to nonuniform limits."

There it is in a nutshell. You just proved your statement absolutely worthless.

Nobody said speed kills.

Silly animal. I don't need to waste time reading this shit. I live near a metro multi-lane freeway that has had the speed limit raised recently. The shitboxes and old farts still do ~50-55, and the rest of us humped it up to the usual 10 mph over posted. The result is the Speed Racers jockeying around the cars in the left lanes by swinging right are encountering vehicles moving 20-30 mph less than they are, and are having to hit the binders. Then they swing left again and, guess what, encounter faster cars coming up from behind. Ka-bang!

While there are more fender-benders in rush hours, the quality of impacts during medium congestion is more lethal. Learn by observation, rather than studies by people who are screwing the government check writers by spewing official-looking graphs and figures.

But it's not the vast majority causing accidents. It's the ones that know they have more leeway with higher posted limits to play the old in-and-out Grand Prix.

The technology exists in OBD IV to speed limit your vehicle via satellite according to traffic conditions. Do not discount the eventual implementation of this idea, and do not think that determined efforts by certain legislative factions to remove older vehicles under the guise of anti-pollution is anything less than a movement to help facilitate this controlled situation.

Less whining about the will of the people, and more observation of the big picture.

CobraJet

They should raise the minimum speed limit at the same time in order to reduce the speed differential. Set the minimum at 15 mph below the maximum limit. People who want to poke along can take secondary highways.

Yeah, I'd *love* to see the cops enforcing that one. They can't even write impeders on surface streets, and we have plenty of those around here.

CobraJet

When the speed limit was 55 mph, the minimum on the interstates was 40 mph. Raise them together to prevent big speed differentials.

That isn't saying you support badly set speed limits.

A great majority of speed limits in the USA are underposted. And given what most of those people from Canada post in r.a.d, it seems that Canada is very similar but not quite as bad. That said, I found no severely underposted roads in part of Germany I visited. A few where traffic speed was a couple-5 kph above the limit, but nothing like the 35mph limits on 50mph roads I see here at home. Not to mention the local interstates that can flow at 80mph but are posted at 55mph or below.

When you start talking about 'rewarding' and punishing you are bringing that into it.

aimed at using

viewpoint is

Re-read your post. You bring it up in the terms that those who follow the speed limit should not be punished because of "speeders". This comes across as the old speed kills nonsense that demonizing anyone who exceeds a number that is generally pulled out of someone's ass.

my bleating

rosey glasses

want chack to

What will or will not happen doesn't change what is correct. Since people want to discuss the issue, I am giving my view. You don't want to hear it, learn to use a kill file.

hits the major

hundreds of

The insults and the you better accept it rutine along with characterization. I think you've hit almost every one of the lame usenet tatics here.

Germans are human? Because if it's human nature, then I must not have been sharing the autobahn with humans.

So you'd rather kill more people and have more collisions with a chaotic traffic flow at a lower speed to avoid the gore of a higher speed collision? Given your followup, that's the only conclusion I can come to.

What you are describing as "human nature" is not, it's the US me-first-f*ck-you society. That is a different problem, and underposted speed limits only make it worse. Because even the slowest drivers can then use that low speed limit as a self rightous defense of their intentional blocking of other drivers.

Ahh sound biting. That sentance is describing how we are in this mess and does nothing of the kind. And what I mean by 'will of the people' is using the 85th precentile method. A sound engineering practice that is compatible with our republic. This is far better than the number-out-of-the-ass method currently in use on many roads.

How exactly then does a 55mph interstate speed limit that is obeyed by less than 1% of drivers do anything for us? It doesn't do a damn thing but errode respect for other laws. I grow tired of this 'you want anarchy' crap in response to me calling for sensible speed limits that reflect reality. You want anarchy, take a look at the Dan Ryan Expressway in chicago. Posted 50/45mph, but it's chaotic. These laws are not bringing order, they are bringing disorder, because they are as out of touch with reality as some 1850 law regarding how to tie up your horse at night.

So you don't want to educate yourself on the subject. I figure as much.

That's because 55mph is severely underposted. The limit is still underposted. Someone who educates himself on this topic would know that already.

I have learned by observation. I've driven where proper engineering methods are used and it's a paradise compared to here. On the few local roads that are properly posted, I find these the best to use my bicycle on because of the more orderly traffic flow. Just because the speed limit is 'higher' still doesn't mean it's set correctly.

Let's say you have to cook your dinner at 350deg F for 40mins. You cook at 200deg F for 40mins and find it's under cooked. So the next time you cook at 300deg F for 40mins and it's still undercooked. It doesn't mean increased temperature isn't the solution, it means you still aren't using the correct value.

How is underposting the speed limit controling them? It isn't. Why should nearly every driver be turned into a violator by setting the speed limit below actual travel speeds just for the sake of giving these people a bigger ticket? You sound like the mayor of the town I grew up in. Major street through the town was 45 mph and a potholed two lane. What happens? It's rebuilt as a well lit, 4 lane road that could easily handle that

45mph traffic speed. New speed limit? 30mph. Why? to make it easier to ticket people going 48mph. That's the reason. Instead of doing things correctly, now practically everyone that drives that road that doesn't want someone riding their bumper is in violation of the law and subject to the whims of officers.

Underposted speed limits have FAILED. They have had decades to show results and haven't. Instead problems with flow, etc are getting worse instead of better. The lower speed limits hold vehicles on the roadway longer as does the chaotic flow that results from them, making increased road usage even more of a problem than it needs to be.

It is sad that so many people in this once great republic now believe the answer to all our problems lies with ever greater control of the population by the government. That we should all give up our liberty due to fear. Did you ever think that the problem is that we shouldn't have rules passed from on high to be blindly obeyed? That our society is supposed to work from the BOTTOM up? Nahh, much easier to have government control.

We have 6 decades of research that shows how to set a speed limit properly by measuring the speed of vehicles. The vast majority do not behave recklessly. Those that do are still subject to tickets. You could post the expressway at 30mph and it wouldn't slow those people down one bit. But then again, you can't bother to educate yourself, you know it all....

I have observed it, and studied it. The answer is doing things correctly and expecting more out of people. Not more of the same lowest common demonator, build-a-better-idiot stuff we've been doing for the last

40 years or more. It doesn't work. It's had more than a fair chance to work, it's time to change.

Brent, talk about the pot calling the kettle black. You are so off base I can't even begin to describe it. Good bye. StuK

can't even begin

I haven't insulted you yet. Simply dismantled the arguement presented.

If you really want to shake the good old boys up, go to

GEB

Well, knock yourself out, Brent. Come up with a system that will remove the self-serving imbeciles from positions of power and instill reasonable statutes that everybody will obey, and I will personally help rally the masses behind you. Hurry up, and no whining about how you can't do it yourself; you obviously have all the answers.

CobraJet

And yet another lame usenet tatic is used.

The way to remove them from power is simple, stop voting for just democrats and republicans.

It's not a "tactic", Brent. You and I basically agree in general. The main difference is that you think American life as dictated by the Powers that Be can be changed. I don't.

Simple, huh? You mean how Ross Perot was voted in as President?

Your one-shot solutions, again, are indicative of a lack of understanding about who runs the show around here and how. It's not anybody any of us will recognize, I assure you. Idealism for mental exercise is fine, but the system is too complex for your kind of theoretical anarchy to hold even a drop of water.

Usually the tatic is that a persons arguement is invalid unless he himself can make it so. Making it so and being correct are two different things. And resigning one's self to an ever worsening status quo a third.

Ross Perot messed up big time when he pulled out and re-entered.

But the problem remains the binary thought of democrat and republican. That anyone who does anything outside of this is wasting their vote.

I very well do know who's running the show. And anyone elected that doesn't come from the normal places and/or doesn't play ball with them is likely to find his brains blown out through the BACK of his head. Landing on the trunk if he's in a convertible at the time.

The very idealism this nation was founded on. Silly that I believe in such things eh? But in doing so I am in some pretty good company.