BMW M3 or Porsche 911 Carrera Coupe

I'm not sure there's ever been a 911 you could qualify as "easy" to drive. A rear-engined layout and the correspondig wieght bias doens't lend itself well to a quick, easy learning curve. Beasides, the 911 isn't really any ;arger than a C5 Corvette or Ferrari's F360.

Porsche has always been known, in part, for the high quality of their cars. If leather seats is what forces a car to cross the line between sports car and GT than you've disqualified a lot of great cars.

Name a major sports not avaliable with some sort of manu-matic. Ferrari has one, as does BMW.

Yea, they do, but they've also been on the verge of bankruptcy a couple of times. You wouldn't have new models to gripe about if the company went under.

Ferrari offers the F1 tranny in the F360 and they still offer the 575M. The avaliablility of a manumatic in cars of this sort is somewhat depressing, but it certainly doesn't define the car. The 993 was a sports car, in every way. The 996 has taken everything the 993 was, stepped it up a notch, and added some extra performance to the mix as well. It hasn't stopped being a sports car, and it never will. The 928 could never match the 911 for outright performanc - even the mighty 928 GTS would've tumbled aganist a Carrera S.

We're probably going to have to agree to disagree on this one, I guess, but I'll give this one more shot. Try looking at it from the other direction: the chief differences between a sports car and a sports GT are in the level of amenities to aid long distance driving: comfy power seats, climate control, automatic tranny with cruise control. With the advent of the 993, the 911 got heavier and more luxurious, a trend that's continued since. Combined with the increase in performance, you get enough overlap between the 928 and the 993 to make anyone question making both. As you yourself mention, some models of the 911 approached or surpassed the 928GTS in every area but luggage capacity. The differences in creature comforts between the two is almost non-existent, a *lot* smaller than those between my 928 and

911SC. There's a lot more between the two than tranny choices - the 928 has features I didn't know Porsches *had* in 1983. Most tellingly, I can't think of a feature you could add to a GT that the current 911 doesn't already have. Plumper seats is about it... So if the car is the equivalent of a GT in ease of driving, comfort, and performance - why is it NOT a grand tourer? Some models of 911 can be ordered as lighter, faster, more "raw," but lots of them can be considered GTs. In fact, the July 6 issue of Autocar has a comparison of the 997 and the Aston-Martin DB9, and the summary calls the 997 "the best sports car/GT on sale." Emanuel

I *knew* there was a reason I was skipping this thread... "Mercedes" is short for "Emil J.'s daughter".

Well, as a 928 owner, and being 6'4" I can tell you that LEGROOM is a huge differance. I tried driving a friends

993tt, and could barely fit in the thing. I had more legroom in my old 914.

Bernard

There's more to the differences between GT and Sports car than just amenities. The 928 was *larger* than the current 996, and had more interior room (not just luggage capcity). It was also *heavier* than the 996 by around 500 pounds (!) in part because of the things Porsche did to make it more comfortable across long distances. Not to mention the fact that Porsche has been offering some form of manumatic since the 1960s, it didn't just appear in the 993. The 996 might be a more comfortable, almost "sedate" car *around town* than the preceeding models were but it's still a hell of a sports car when you want it to be. That kind of versitility doesn't make the 996 a GT car, that's simply one more reason why the 911 is a *better* car than most of the competition.

Now you're splitting some hairs here so you know I'm right: the 996 is really a GT car targeted at boorish brand-flashing suburbanites. Probably sitting next to a Harley that never gets ridden.

Here's a quote from a car review and the link:

Driving Impressions Piloting a Porsche 911 in any form is like savoring a legend. Recent models are comparatively easy to drive and quite civilized. They blend a reasonably smooth, extra-stable ride with vigorous performance and utmost handling talents. Even the familiar engine whine isn?t as omnipresent as it used to be, while the exhaust note is subdued yet exuberant. Porsche?s six-speed gearbox is as good as they get.

?makeid=41&modelid=386&year=2004&myid=&acode=&crpPage=summary.jsp&aff=startrib The wifey doesn't like a loud engine.

Next time I'm at the track I'll get some 996 guy to put his >>Are you sure? The 996 is pretty big and heavy and easy to drive

Like I said, we'll agree to disagree. While Porsche did offer some sort of auto, they dropped it for a period, coinciding with the release and discontinuation of the 928, more or less. As for the last couple of sentences, I've heard the exact same thing about the 928. To me, there's a basis for claiming that the current 911s are GTs as valid as the claim they're sports cars. But then, I'm not as invested as you seem to be... Emanuel

My 2002 996 sits next to a 2003 Honda Civic Si that gets driven (to work) daily. The 996 goes out at least once a week.

Your link is an internet car buying service. They're not really enthusiasts, they want to sell you a car. I'm betting they haven't a clue what trailing throttle oversteer is and what to do about it. They probably are unaware the 996 is quieter than the 993 beacuse it's liquid-cooled.

Ha! I don't think I'm the one splitting hairs.

I beg your pardon, but the 964 and 993 were both avaliable with the Tiptronic, and both models had at least a part of their production overlap the 928's, which lasted till' 1995.

The 928 was a GT car that also happened to be very sporty, like Ferrari's 575M. The 996 is a sports car that can be civil when it's asked to be.

Nice shot, but I'm not gonna argue with you. Every major source in the world lists the 911 as a Sports Car.

One thing obivously different is the number of seats. If you want to transport 4 people, then you want the M3. If you do NOT want to transport the Mother In Law :-) then the Porsche is for you.

If you're look> After about a decade of investing, I finally have enough money to buy

I've had the chance to sit in the back seat of a 996. At 5 foot 10 inches, I'm hardly the biggest guy around, but I do have broad shoulders. The back seats of the 996 are "useable" as long as the person sitting in front does not need the seat to be back very far and the drive isn't very long. More than about 15 minutes back there and I probably would've torn my way out.

Personally I have always liked the "wolf in sheep's clothing" aspect of sporting sedans, whether BMW or not.

Prancing about so others notice you seems so unmanly.

Jess Englewood wrote:>

Me too. My first loves were a BMW 2002 and Ford Cortina GT.

The 911 is simply one of the world's outstanding sports cars, and has been for decades. The M3 is a nice car, but it's not a 911 and certainly doesn't enjoy the worldwide recognition that a 911 does. If you think a

911 is only good for prancing you better think again.

I think they are both fine cars but you should probably not buy either of them as both are about to be replaced by newer models. There probably won't be an M3 for a couple of years or so (BMW tends to come out with the sedan first, then the coupe, then the M3) but the new Porsche Carrera (the 997) will be out real soon.

marcos

Well, I have a 98 M3 and a 78 911SC. The M3 is definitely more practical. You can fit four or five in, and the trunk is reasonable. It's a hoot to drive but is "street" enough not to be taxing. The 911 is a labor of love. It's the best-driving car I've ever been in, but it does keep you on your toes. The owner's group is, IMO, better than the Bimmer group. Owners help each other out, so you can learn how to upgrade and maintain it yourself (and there are plenty of sources for parts).

My opinion-

If you want a fun or second car, go for the Porsche. If you want a more standard car or have a family, go for the M3.

Cheers...Craig craig(underscore) snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.C O M

Reminds me of being at Rose Angeli's over on Wrightwood with several Italian colleagues. The American waiter, ahem, "corrected" pronunciation of three people from Milan and an American who speaks the language. "Riz-ah-toe" and "bru-she-tah" my ass.

Cheers...Craig craig(underscore) snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.C O M