Direction GM's taking Saturn

I was poking around the SaturnFans website to see threads regarding tires, and noticed another thread: "The Death of Saturn". It was started by what appears to be a fairly new saleslady who was tired of seeing negative posts lamenting the direction GM has Saturn going in. Even though I thought she came across as a bit arrogant, I understand she's defending her (new) employer. She's excited about working there and is defensive. That was my take anyways. It started a debate that was interesting to read from some of the long-time Saturn owners.

For one thing I didn't realize Saturn was doing away with the Polymer side panels that help prevent dents. According to the saleslady it was a "division that was losing money" and the owners who don't like the change are basically crybabies. hah.

Some of the owners seem to believe that GM is ruining Saturn.

I bought my car 2nd hand from a friend because he gave me the trade-in price he was offered for it when he bought a new VUE in 2003. I had always said I wouldn't have another 4-cylinder but the deal was too good to pass up and I needed a better car at the time. Once I started driving the SW2 I enjoyed having it. As much as I hated (and still hate) how low the wagon sits, I still have really enjoyed having it. It's roomier than it looks from the outside. And to me the Polymer is a bigger draw than that lady seems to think. It set Saturn apart I thought. And Saturn's prices seemed competitive at least.

Me personally, I'm waiting for a new American car company to start up that'll give people the opportunity to buy a very reliable car, that's very affordable, and is simple for an owner to work on without everything under the hood being crammed together, and still be one that's stylish and attractive. I'm not crazy about having computers run things in cars either. I'd like to see a car being sold for $8,000 - $10,000 that a family could feel safe in and have it not be a piece of junk. With the exportation of American jobs overseas there there's a bigger market than ever for a really affordable car.

Whenever I see on tv the old American cars from the 50's still being worked on and driven by Cubans on the island, I wonder if that could happen with today's cars in a similar situation.

I got a little sidetracked, but I'm curious about what you all think about how GM is running Saturn.

Thanks, Jeff

Reply to
J B
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THe main reason they have been successfull is QUALITY. THey are not strapped with GM's labor costs and philosphy which will destroy Saturn eventually. The only chance the Saturn has to servive is to split from GM management on labor rules and vehicle philosphy because they are abondoning the low end market they started in and focusing on higher dollar and less fuel efficent model that tend to be more trouble prone too.

----------------- TheSnoMan.com

Reply to
SnoMan

I can speak from both sides of the fence as a Saturn owner, former Saturn salesman and still a Saturn fan although I work for Chevy now.

Most will bash Saturn w/o knowing the history of the company nor knowing that GM had been cutting their funding prior to them fully joining the GM family. This caused a lack of improvement for Saturn and arrested growth for years. Considering that GM has fully funded Buick and Pontiac and has lost money on them as well, this has to be taken into consideration as well. It was only a short while ago that GM was considering which of the 3 to close and Saturn was seen as the most profitable to keep of the three.

Quality and fit and finish are some of the many reasons that polymer must go. I love my polymer personally, but I have no qualm with perfect fit and finish, and hydroformed steel panels are better looking anyways. Just look at the SKY.

As far as safety and crash testing, I'm not sure anymore that to believe in what I read. Recent crash testing says that the Aveo has a 5 star rating while the ION is much lower. That's US ratings. In Europe, the Aveo, otherwise known as the Kalos, and many other names all over the world has miserably failed crash ratings. Why? Perhaps our tests weigh against any car without standard side air bags. ION doesn't have them standard.

Do I believe that? Heck no. What I do believe in is the many customers and people that I have met across the years who have survived major car crashes in a Saturn. Nuff said. Real life experience speaks louder than lab controlled tests. I also survived what might have been a serious accident if I hadn't been in my old trusty SL2.

Change is good sometimes, if this means that GM will make better fitting panels and still retain or increase safety, great. If thes means that Saturn will become a mainstream name when people see the Aura or the SKY or Outlook on the street and this means Saturn will finally become synonymous with quality and luxury, Im all for that too. Can't wait to see what the future brings for Saturn.

But I'm not ready to trade in my SC2 yet. ;-)

marx404

Reply to
marx404

Change at GM is mostly about cutting costs to boost profits, not make a better product.With GM having 70% of cost of building a car going to labor, quality will suffer. Unless they start spending less money on labor and more on car parts and quality, they will slowing go down the toilet as Toyota is nipping at their heals now after overtaking Ford. The future is not bright for GM unless they can get labor cost in check.

----------------- TheSnoMan.com

Reply to
SnoMan

the whole thing about saturn and the polymer panels was innovation. gm and saturn have forgotten that, if you innovate, you can lead, but if you follow, you will always follow and never win. the consumer is the one who the saturn is made for, not gm. gm is making the mistake of it's life by bankrolling a comeback of an outdated gas guzzler camaro. theres quite a number of fast muscle cars, but few cars that provide the owner with superior quality and reliability. that's where the market is.

Reply to
raamman

Nice Comment. GM does have a "focus" problem too. It is not the Camaro though as it is the philosphy of try to keep big iron the main focus when its time is passing. THis is why Toyota and other have been so successfull. They did not steal the market, Detriot gave it to them but stubbornly clinging to old ideas.

----------------- TheSnoMan.com

Reply to
SnoMan

They started Saturn out to be different but if they just want it to be another cow in the herd not they might as well kill it now.

----------------- TheSnoMan.com

Reply to
SnoMan

This discussion prompts me to think about the question, why did GM start Saturn in the first place? Remember "a different kind of car; a different kind of car company?" The early marketing would seem to suggest that GM wasn't as much concerned with the fact that they wouldn't be able to "sell enough vehicles to justify the design and tooling costs for a line of unique vehicles" (to quote scharf.steven). If this was true and what steven says is now true, then I would say that GM has pulled (even if without having intended it, originally) something similar to a "bait and switch." They lured us away from Japanese product with the SL, SC and SW lines (polymer panels, reliable, inexpensive, fun, [relatively] powerful 4-cylinder OHC engines) and now offer products that are completely different but with synergies to other GM product. Well, I guess it's back to Asian imports .... :(

Reply to
Steve

A car that makes 400hp and probably will get 28 mpg highway is far from a gas guzzler. Find me something else making that much power and getting better gas mileage. There wouldnt be any notable difference in gas mileage between it and a 6cyl Honda powered Vue. It probably wouldnt hurt gas mileage the slightest bit to put a 300hp rated LS2 in the Saturn Vue and gear it taller since it doesnt tow anything anyway. The latest V8's from GM are downright indestructible and amazingly efficient. Next time you jab at gas mileage look at the power output.

Reply to
BläBlä

BlaBla wrote: "This is kind of a trollish thread."

Blame me I guess since I started it. I was just curious what you guys on here thought. And I'm glad I did because I've read some interesting posts. I have to admit I didn't pay real close attention to what Saturn had to offer until I bought my SW2 from my friend in 2003. The quality of the car surprised me, although I wish it had a 6-cyl. instead of a 4. The inside is set up nice for a wagon, and is a comfortable ride, especially on the highway.

After reading what that saleslady had posted on SaturnFans, it made me aware that some folks don't like the changes being made. Some of which I didn't even realize were happening.

Interesting posts...Thanks, Jeff

About another week and I should be able to get my new tires. Can't wait to get the Affinity's off the car since they don't have alot of tread left. I'm leaning towards the Allegra's but the Goodrich Touring T/S Pro's they have at Sam's Club look pretty nice also. Probably can't go wrong with either one. And there's only a $4/tire difference with the Allegra's being the more expensive of the two.

Reply to
J B

Sure, you might have the facts on your side, but it doesn't mean much when the public perception is different. SUV's are dead by the way, 10 more years, people will be looking at the and asking what were they thinking? like those veneer wood panel stationwagonsof the 60s and 70s

Also, those mileage stats don't hold up in the real world, just corporate propoganda because some executive fool at gm said, hey, why don't we bring back the camaro ? instead of really using his brain and saying, why don't we just develop the polymer panel technology a bit more and build better cars than anyone else with it ?

Reply to
raamman

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 22:20:46 +0000, SnoMan took a five-minute break from flipping burgers to boot the etch-a-sketch and scribble out:

I thought that was Saturn was designed for from the beginning.

Reply to
PerfectReign

Maybe in your dreams it will get 28 MPG (with a tail wind at 55 MPH) It will likely average about half that or less in town and that is a gas guzzler. There are speed limits and you do not need anything never

400 HP to exceed them in a car nor do you need 400 HP to get there. GM should spend research money on better MPG cars, not trendy cars to make a few fast bucks. I drove a old Cmaary with a 4cyl and a 5 speed for years that would easily exceed 100 MPH with no real effort aand it got about 30 MPG in town and around 40 on highway running 65 to70. It had a bad day when it only got 35 or 36 on a trip. Drove it well over 200K miles and its mileage was always consistant and never varied more than a few MPG in its life. It can be done but GM is not interested in it.

----------------- TheSnoMan.com

Reply to
SnoMan

Part of the reason for the lack of lure was GM np haggle price that chased away a lot of sales. They had a interesting concept but lacked the guts to follow it through. Saturn prior to about 2000 were pretty well built overall and there is a lot of high mileage mid 90's ones out there. Now Saturn are getting to be just like other GM cars with just a different label on them but the same quality and parts under the skin which will kill Saturn long term. Dumping the plastic body parts that were a corner stone for its rust resitance. durabilty and there resitance to bumps and dings will hasen its fall because it will no longer be different than any other GM car other than styling.

----------------- TheSnoMan.com

Reply to
SnoMan

THat was the original intent but it has been abandoned now.

----------------- TheSnoMan.com

Reply to
SnoMan

The last WS6 Firebird made 325 hp and it received a 28mpg highway rating=20 from the EPA. The problem was the epa never goes above 60mph. In real=20 world use the WS6 has been known to get not only 28mpg but also tip=20

30mpg and that was before DoD. My car is rated by the EPA at 28mpg=20 Highway and I've gotten that driving hard and doing 75mph over long=20 trips. In the worst freezing cold conditions when I was doing short=20 trips to work have I EVER hit the 18mpg epa "city" rating. My engine=20 NEVER got warm on those trips... I guess some mileage stats do hold up=20 in the real world huh?

What's so great about polymer panels that you "must" have them? They're=20 certainly nothing to cry over. They were as advance as they were going=20 to get.

Reply to
BläBlä

you buy a car, someone does something that puts a ding in it, you hate seeing it, everytime you look at it you see it, it turns you inside out because when it happened it was avoidable, but it's too expensive to replace

Reply to
raamman

Need to clarify somie thing here, the EPA does not test rate them any more and has not for years, Detriot performs there one tests and speed avewrage on highway cyclle is 48 with top speed of 59. Anoy wne that says they get 30 MPG with one of those cars is really spinning a yarn big time (maybe 30 KPG but not30MPG)

----------------- TheSnoMan.com

Reply to
SnoMan

My last long trip I got 29.3 miles per gallon with CC. It has 2 very tall overdrives for a reason dips;;;. Lead foots need not apply!

buh buh buh what?

cyclle is 48 with top speed of 59. Anoy wne that

buh buh buh

Reply to
otech97

This wireless key board sends wrong letters sometime, I need to watch it more closely I guess. The average speed for highway test is 48 and top speed is 59. Nobody averages 48 on hiway unless it is a real traffic jam or on icy roads maybe. Detriot does test too, not EPA as they pushed for that rule change to make it easier to "fudge" the tests and figures. Kinda like letting the fox watch the hen house.

----------------- TheSnoMan.com

Reply to
SnoMan

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