OT Safely stopping vehicles trying to run check-points

the small standard sized mailbox? I had a supplier that would sell you one, GOV APPROVED (NO ideas HOW, but)

it weighed 55#..

was quarter inch steel..

last 2 catalogs from that company, its no longer listed as available..

--Shiva--

This is what I meant.... A T1 and a T3 mailbox... Just Google T1 rural mailbox, and T3 rural mailbox.

the small standard sized mailbox? I had a supplier that would

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We should...

JT

You never disappoint me Mike. I count on you to be misinformed and you come through every time. You are confusing the war against Terrorists, which needs to be fought, with the war in Iraq that didn't need to be fought, that we now cannot win, that has made us weaker overall, that has made Israel weaker, that has made Iran stronger. Here is a list of the many lies Bush told us, and they are not "merely political statements" they are true facts of history.---

8/14/92 Defense Secretary Dick Cheney declares President Bush Sr. wise not to invade Baghdad and "get bogged down in the problems of trying to take over and govern Iraq."

4/15/93 Saddam Hussein reportedly tries to assassinate Bush Sr.

1/26/98 Project for a New American Century (pnac) - founded by Cheney, Scooter Libby, Donald Rumsfeld, Jeb Bush, Paul Wolfowitz and other top neocons - demands President Clinton undertake the "removal of Saddam Hussein's regime."

6/23/98 "The good Lord didn't see fit to put oil and gas only where there are democratically elected regimes friendly to the United States." -Halliburton ceo Cheney

8/7/98 Al Qaeda bombs U.S. embassies in Africa, killing 220 and injuring some 4,000.

10/31/98 Clinton signs the Iraq Liberation Act. Regime change becomes official U.S. policy.

Late 1998 Gen. Anthony Zinni, head of U.S. Central Command, examines Iraqi exile Ahmed Chalabi's military plan to overthrow Saddam with 1,000 men. He warns Congress it is "pie in the sky, a fairy tale."

NOVEMBER 1999 Chalabi-connected Iraqi defector "Curveball" - a convicted sex offender and low-level engineer who became the sole source for much of the case that Saddam had wmd, particularly mobile weapons labs - enters Munich seeking a German visa. German intelligence officers describe his information as highly suspect. U.S. agents never debrief Curveball or perform background check. Nonetheless, Defense Intelligence Agency (dia) and cia will pass raw intelligence on to senior policymakers.

10/3/00 Debating Al Gore, George W. Bush says he'd commit troops only with an "exit strategy," and he'd be "very careful about using our troops as nation builders."

10/12/00 Al Qaeda attacks USS Cole in Aden, Yemen, killing 17 and injuring

11/6/00 Congress doubles funding for Iraqi opposition groups to more than $25 million, $18 million earmarked for Chalabi's Iraqi National Congress, which then pays defectors for anti-Iraq tales.

1/30/01 Saddam's removal is top item of Bush's inaugural national security meeting. Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill later recalls, "It was all about finding a way to do it. The president saying, 'Go find me a way to do this. "

2/14/01 Dick Cheney's energy task force begins secret meetings with oil company executives.

2/24/01 Saddam "has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction." - Secretary of State Colin Powell

2/26/01 Future Iraq Ambassador L. Paul Bremer III says: "The new administration seems to be paying no attention to the problem of terrorism."

3/5/01 Pentagon produces document titled "Foreign Suitors for Iraqi Oilfield Contracts" for Cheney's task force. Includes a map of areas for potential exploration.

4/10/01 Lone cia analyst known only as "Joe" tells top Bush brass that aluminum tubes bought by Iraq can only be for nuclear centrifuges.

8/6/01 On vacation in Crawford, Bush receives a Presidential Daily Briefing warning, "Bin Laden Determined to Strike in U.S." fbi highlights Al Qaeda activities consistent with hijacking preparations, as well as surveillance of federal buildings.

8/17/01 Memo to cia from Energy Department experts eviscerates "Joe's" theory that aluminum tubes purchased by Iraq are for nuclear centrifuges. Memo given to National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, who later claims tubes are clear evidence of Iraqi nuke program.

SEPTEMBER 2001 Curveball granted German asylum, ceases cooperating. British spy agency MI6 has told cia that "elements of [his] behavior strike us as typical of ... fabricators."

9/10/01 nsa intercepts messages that say, "The match is about to begin" and "Tomorrow is zero hour." Not translated until Sept. 12.

9/11/01 Al Qaeda attacks. Minutes taken by a Rumsfeld aide five hours later: "Best info fast. Judge whether good enough [to] hit SH [Saddam Hussein] @ same time. Not only UBL [Usama bin Laden]."

9/12/01 According to counter-terror czar Richard Clarke, "[Bush] told us, 'I want you, as soon as you can, to go back over everything, everything. See if Saddam did this.' " Told evidence against al Qaeda overwhelming, Bush asks for "any shred" Saddam was involved.

9/19/01 Pentagon's Defense Policy Board, chaired by Richard Perle and featuring Henry Kissinger and Newt Gingrich, declares that Iraq should be invaded after Afghanistan.

9/21/01 Justice Department lawyer John Yoo declares Fourth Amendment flexible, writing: "[T]he government may be justified in taking measures which in less troubled conditions could be seen as infringements of individual liberties."

9/25/01 Yoo forges doctrine of preemption, writing that Bush may use his war powers to act against groups or individuals, even if it would be "difficult to establish [that they] have been or may be implicated in attacks."

10/7/01 Afghanistan invaded.

10/8/01 Office of Homeland Security established.

10/25/01 Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism (usa Patriot) Act passes 98-1 in the Senate.

11/11/01 Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, top al Qaeda paramilitary trainer, captured in Pakistan.

11/26/01 Bush declares, "Saddam is evil."

Late NOVEMBER 2001 Osama bin Laden, pinned down at Tora Bora, slips away.

12/9/01 Cheney on Meet the Press: "Well, the evidence is pretty conclusive that the Iraqis have indeed harbored terrorists." Also claims 9/11 hijacker Mohammed Atta met with Iraqi spy in Prague, a claim he'll repeat long after cia and Czechs disavow.

Early 2002 Bush approves "The Program," which permits nsa to surveil U.S. citizens without a warrant, court approval or sign-off from the Justice Department.

JANUARY 2002 fbi, which favors standard law enforcement interrogation practices, loses debate with cia Director George Tenet, and al-Libi is transferred to cia custody. Al-Libi is then rendered to Egypt. "They duct-taped his mouth, cinched him up and sent him to Cairo," an fbi agent told reporters. "At the airport the cia case officer goes up to him and says, 'You're going to Cairo, you know. Before you get there, I am going to find your mother and I'm going to f*ck her.' " Under torture, al-Libi invents tale of al Qaeda operatives receiving chemical weapons training from Iraq. "This is the problem with using the waterboard. They get so desperate that they begin telling you what they think you want to hear," a cia source later tells abc.

1/9/02 Yoo memo to Pentagon brass declares that the laws of war, including the Geneva Conventions, do not apply to the conflict in Afghanistan.

1/25/02 White House Counsel Alberto Gonzales echoes Yoo: "In my judgment, this new paradigm renders obsolete Geneva's strict limitations on questioning of enemy prisoners and renders quaint some of its provisions."

1/29/02 Bush delivers "Axis of Evil" State of the Union. Speechwriter David Frum later says phrase was the fruit of being asked: "Can you sum up in a sentence or two our best case for going after Iraq?"

FEBRUARY 2002 dia intelligence summary notes that al-Libi's "confession" lacks details and suggests that he is most likely telling interrogators what he thinks will "retain their interest." Also states: "Saddam's regime is intensely secular and is wary of Islamic revolutionary movements. Moreover, Baghdad is unlikely to provide assistance to a group it cannot control."

2/13/02 Total Information Awareness program leaked.

2/26/02 Former Ambassador Joseph Wilson sent to Niger to check out claims Iraq buying uranium-rich yellowcake.

March 2002 "Fuck Saddam. We're taking him out." -Bush to Rice and three senators.

3/5/02 Joe Wilson tells cia there's no indication that Iraq is buying yellowcake.

3/8/02 First of Downing Street memos prepared by Tony Blair's top national security aides. "There is no greater threat now than in recent years that Saddam will use wmd. . Washington believes the legal basis for an attack on Iraq already exists. ... Regime change has no basis in international law."

3/13/02 Bush on Osama: "I'll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about him."

3/24/02 Saddam "is actively pursuing nuclear weapons at this time." -Cheney on cnn

3/28/02 Pakistani forces capture al Qaeda "operations chief" Abu Zubaydah and cia ferrets him away to underground interrogation facility in Thailand. Bush told he's mentally unstable and really only al Qaeda's travel agent.

4/9/02 Bush calls Zubaydah one of "top operating officials of al Qaeda, plotting . murder." Later asks Tenet, "I said he was important, you're not going to let me lose face on this are you? ... Do some of those harsh methods really work?" Zubaydah is then tortured and speaks of all variety of plots.

MAY 2002 Primary corroborator of Curveball's claims that Iraq has mobile weapons labs is judged a liar and Chalabi plant by dia. A fabricator warning is posted in U.S. intelligence databases.

June 2002 To a deputy raising doubts about Iraq war, Rice says: "Save your breath. The president has already made up his mind."

July 2002 Gen. Franks secretly requests $700 million for war preparations. Bush approves, unbeknownst to Congress. Money taken from appropriation for the war in Afghanistan.

7/23/02 Downing Street memo written by foreign secretary after his visit with cia's Tenet and other U.S. officials: "There was a perceptible shift in attitude. Military action was now seen as inevitable. . The intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy. . The most likely timing in U.S. minds for military action to begin was January, with the timeline beginning 30 days before the U.S. Congressional elections."

8/7/02 Bush given Iraq war plan by Gen. Franks.

8/20/02 "We may or may not attack. I have no idea yet." -Bush

"There are al Qaeda in Iraq. ... There are." -Rumsfeld

8/26/02 "There is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction. There is no doubt he is amassing them to use against our friends . and against us." - Cheney

9/8/02 Page 1 New York Times story by Judith Miller and Michael Gordon cites anonymous administration officials saying Saddam has repeatedly tried to acquire aluminum tubes "specially designed" to enrich uranium. "The first sign of a 'smoking gun,' they argue, may be a mushroom cloud."

9/8/02 Tubes "are only really suited for nuclear weapons programs ... we don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud." - Rice on cnn

9/8/02 "We do know, with absolute certainty, that he is using his procurement system to acquire the equipment he needs in order to enrich uranium to build a nuclear weapon." -Cheney on Meet the Press

9/16/02 "The president hasn't made a decision to do anything with respect to Iraq." -Rumsfeld

9/16/02 White House economic adviser Lawrence Lindsey estimates Iraq war could cost $200 billion.

Mid-September 2002 American relatives of Iraqis sent as cia moles return from Iraq. All 30 report Saddam has abandoned wmd programs. President Bush never briefed.

9/19/02 Rumsfeld tells Congress that Saddam "has amassed large, clandestine stockpiles of chemical weapons, including VX, sarin and mustard gas."

9/25/02 "You can't distinguish between al Qaeda and Saddam when you talk about the war on terror." -Bush

9/25/02 Citing al-Libi intelligence, Rice says: "High-ranking detainees have said that Iraq provided some training to al Qaeda in chemical weapons development."

9/26/02 Classified dia assessment of Iraq's chemical weapons concludes there is "no reliable information on whether Iraq is producing and stockpiling chemical weapons."

9/26/02 In a speech in Houston, Bush says of Saddam: "After all, this is a guy who tried to kill my dad."

9/27/02 Rumsfeld calls link between Iraq and al Qaeda "accurate and not debatable."

October 2002 Administration decides not to take out Abu Musab al-Zarqawi because, though he is not yet working with al Qaeda, any terrorist in Iraq helps case for war. "People were more obsessed with developing the coalition to overthrow Saddam than to execute the president's policy of preemption against terrorists," a former nsc member later says.

10/7/02 Bush delivers a speech in which he says, "Facing clear evidence of peril, we cannot wait for the final proof - the smoking gun - that could come in the form of a mushroom cloud."

10/11/02 Congress - including all serious Democratic contenders - votes to grant Bush power to go to war.

10/20/02 Saddam empties prisons.

November 2002 cia station chiefs from Middle East gather for a secret meeting at the U.S. Embassy in London. The message: War is inevitable, just a few months away.

11/5/02 gop gains control of Senate.

11/8/02 U.N. Security Council passes Resolution 1441 offering Iraq "a final opportunity to comply with its disarmament obligations." Iraq agrees and U.N. weapons inspectors return.

11/14/02 Rumsfeld handicaps war length: "Five days or five weeks or five months, but it certainly isn't going to last any longer than that."

11/27/02 Weapons inspections resume in Iraq. Rumsfeld signs off on "Category III" interrogation techniques including "the use of scenarios designed to convince the detainee that death or severely painful consequences are imminent for him and/or his family." It is later shown that these methods are torture as defined in U.S. federal law, and that dod knew that at the time.

12/7/02 Iraq submits a 12,200-page declaration to the United Nations documenting all its unconventional arms. U.S. discredits the report because it does not mention the tubes or the Niger uranium.

12/21/02 Asked by Bush if there's any reason to doubt existence of wmd, Tenet says: "It's a slam-dunk case."

12/31/02 New war cost estimate generated: $50-$60 billion.

January 2003 National Intelligence Council warns Bush that war in Iraq could lead to an anti-U.S. insurgency and "increase popular sympathy for terrorist objectives."

1/9/03 Mohamed El Baradei, head of the UN's International Atomic Energy Agency, echoes doe's view that the aluminum tubes sought by Iraq are likely for artillery rockets, not centrifuges. A senior Bush official responds, "I think the Iraqis are spinning the iaea."

1/9/03 After nearly two months, United Nations' Hans Blix says his inspectors have not found any "smoking guns" in Iraq.

1/11/03 Bush tells Saudi ambassador Prince Bandar he plans to go to war two days before he tells Secretary Powell.

1/20/03 Bush signs presidential directive giving Pentagon control over postwar Iraq.

1/28/03 In State of the Union, Bush says "the 16 words": "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." Bush adds that Saddam has "tried to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes suitable for nuclear weapons production" and has "mobile biological weapons labs."

1/31/03 Notes of meeting between Bush and Blair make clear Bush intends to invade Iraq even if U.N. inspectors found no evidence of wmd.

2/1/03 During U.N. speech rehearsal, Powell throws draft written by Libby into the air and says: "I'm not reading this. This is bullshit."

2/4/03 After reading draft of Powell's speech, cia agent e-mails his superior with concerns about "the validity of the information based on 'CURVE BALL.' " Noting he's the only U.S. agent to have ever met Curveball (who was hung over at the time), the agent asks: "We sure didn't give much credence to this report when it came out. Why now?"

2/5/03 In U.N. speech, Powell says, "Every statement I make today is backed up by sources, solid sources. These are not assertions. What we're giving you are facts and conclusions based on solid intelligence." Cites al-Libi's claims and Curveball's "eyewitness" accounts of mobile weapons labs. (German officer who supervised Curveball's handler will later recall thinking, "Mein Gott!") Powell also claims that Saddam's son Qusay has ordered wmd removed from palace complexes; that key wmd files are being driven around Iraq by intelligence agents; that bioweapons warheads have been hidden in palm groves; that a water truck at an Iraqi military installation is a "decontamination vehicle" for chemical weapons; that Iraq has drones it can use for bioweapons attacks; and that wmd experts have been corralled into one of Saddam's guest houses. All but the last of those claims had been flagged by the State Department's own intelligence unit as "WEAK."

2/7/03 Rumsfeld ups war length estimate: "It could last.six days, six weeks. I doubt six months."

2/8/03 U.N.'s Team Bravo, led by American bioweapons experts, searches Curveball's former work site in Iraq and disproves many of his claims.

2/8/03 In radio address to the nation, Bush warns that "firsthand witnesses [read: Curveball] have informed us that Iraq has at least seven mobile factories" for germ warfare.

2/15/03 Largest demonstrations in history. In 600 cities worldwide, millions protest war.

2/25/03 Gen. Eric Shinseki tells Congress "several hundred thousand troops" will be needed to occupy Iraq. Rumsfeld retaliates, naming Shinseki's successor 14 months before the end of his term.

2/27/03 U.S. diplomat John Brady Kiesling resigns, citing the "distortion of intelligence" and "systematic manipulation of American opinion."

2/27/03 Wolfowitz tells congressional hearing: "I am reasonably certain that they will greet us as liberators . the notion of hundreds of thousands of American troops is way off the mark."

3/1/03 Iraq destroys four missiles, meeting a U.N. deadline to begin disarming.

3/3/03 iaea official tells U.S. that the Niger uranium documents were forgeries so error-filled that "they could be spotted by someone using Google."[!]

3/7/03 U.S., Britain and Spain present a revised draft resolution giving Saddam an ultimatum to disarm by March 17 or face the possibility of war. France refuses to sign on to ultimatum.

3/7/03 Blix tells U.N. Security Council that there's "no evidence" of mobile bioweapons facilities in Iraq.

3/8/03 On cnn, Joe Wilson says, "I think it's safe to say that the U.S. government should have or did know that [the Niger documents were] fake before Dr. El Baradei mentioned it in his report at the U.N. yesterday." Decision to discredit Wilson made at a meeting within the office of the vice president.

3/15/03 Bush, Tony Blair and Spain's president have "emergency summit." Bush gives United Nations one day to find a diplomatic solution.

3/16/03 Cheney on Meet the Press: "We believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons." (Cheney later claims he misspoke.) Adds, "I really do believe that we will be greeted as liberators."

3/17/03 U.S. and UK fail to secure U.N. resolution authorizing use of force. Bush gives Saddam 48 hours to surrender.

3/18/03 Washington Post article headlined "Bush Clings to Dubious Allegations About Iraq" notes, "As the Bush administration prepares to attack Iraq this week, it is doing so on the basis of a number of allegations against Iraqi President Saddam Hussein that have been challenged - and in some cases disproved - by the United Nations, European governments and even U.S. intelligence reports." Story is buried on Page A13.

3/20/03 War begins.

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Mark , you probably should skip the political discussions till you brush up on history. Clinton did not inherit a booming economy, and he did not cause any recession. We had the longest economic expansion ever under his leadership. It is a myth that he did nothing against the Islamic terrorists. I find it incredible that you are ashamed of Clinton's blow job and not ashamed of the thousands of lives wasted by Bush. The left does not refuse to acknowledge the threat from the Islamic terrorists. They abhor the fact that we were sidetracked from that fight for a wild goose chase in Iraq. The Taliban is resurgent in Afghanistan and controls more of the country than we do,

Mike, you are the one who needs to brush up on history, and economics too. We have never before in our history cut taxes during a time of war. Your lame excuse about Congress is just that, lame. The Republicans controlled congress.They would have given Bush whatever he asked for to support the war. I don't need the reminder that Clinton lied about a personal matter that was nobody elses business. To try and equate that with lying us into a war is really sick. AND now for the economics lesson. The war on terror since 911 has cost us about $437 Billion.

Bushs total deficits has been over 2.5 trillion so far. The national debt was under 6 trillion when he came in office-- Now it is over 8.6 trillion --- So less than 20% of his massive deficits were caused by the war.This is what I mean when I say I back up my statements with facts.

The facts speak for themselves.

Damn good thing....or most of the folks involved in this thread would be serving hard time and worrying more about giving up the booty than arguing with other knotheads that aren't going to listen to anything that doesn't line up with their beliefs!

Give it a rest, folks....hasn't anyone driven a Stude lately? I saw mine in the garage the other day...and Trish drove hers to the car wash!

Bob (I hate politics and people that argue politics in a Studebaker forum....even if it is marked OT!)

Dave's Place www.davesplace> > President Bush has not been charged or convicted of anything.

I rolled the 62 out of the way of the garage door the other day!

Dan Kay

61 Lark VIII 62 Daytona Convertible

Bigbob62 wrote:

Maybe if your name is Alex Magdaleno... for everyone else, we're wondering what the hell you're rambling on about... again.

Lee

I tested my new, to this car but from the mid-1050s, day/night interior rearview mirror the other night. on the '64 CDR Works fine and looks better than the stock one, I;ve been told.

Karl

What a waste of time discussing Clinton, notice he's near the top of both the best and worst President polls. With the exception of GW, the lists just flip according to party, GW is down on the best, and high on the worst.

"A Quinnipiac University poll, taken May 23-30, 2006, asked 1,534 registered American voters to pick the best and worst U.S. President of the last 61 years. [10].

"Thinking about the United States Presidents we have had since World War II ? Harry Truman, Dwight Eisenhower, John Kennedy, Lyndon Johnson, Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford, Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, George Bush Senior, Bill Clinton, and George W. Bush, which one would you consider the best president?"

1. Ronald Reagan (28%) 2. Bill Clinton (25%) 3. John Kennedy (18%) 4. Harry Truman (7%) 5. Dwight Eisenhower (5%) 6. Jimmy Carter (5%) 7. Don't Know/No Answer (4%) 8. George W. Bush (3%) 9. George H. W. Bush (2%) 10. Lyndon Johnson (1%) 11. Richard Nixon (1%) 12. Gerald Ford (1%)

"Which of these eleven presidents we have had since World War II would you consider the worst president - Harry Truman, Dwight Eisenhower, John Kennedy, Lyndon Johnson, Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford, Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, George Bush Senior, Bill Clinton, and George W. Bush?"

1. George W. Bush (34%) 2. Richard Nixon (17%) 3. Bill Clinton (16%) 4. Jimmy Carter (13%) 5. Don't Know/No Answer (5%) 6. Lyndon Johnson (4%) 7. Ronald Reagan (3%) 8. George H. W. Bush (3%) 9. Gerald Ford (2%) 10. Harry Truman (1%) 11. John Kennedy (1%) 12. Dwight Eisenhower (

Sorry if I talked over your head. It is real difficult to make things simpler for you to understand (:-)

[QUOTE] Military tests NONFATAL WAYS TO HALT VEHICLES saving as many lives as we can."

The less violent approach to the problem is to slow down and bring vehicles to a stop for inspection/questioning BEFORE they can barrel through check-points, rather than the devising of clever dangerous and destructive devices to be applied AFTER the check-point has already been breached. (either in ignorance or in malice)

Check points preceded by prominent multi-language warning signs, "rumble-strips", a series of "speed bumps" with substantial movable "gates" can slow traffic and permit selected suspect vehicles to be safely diverted and halted.

In war, life is cheap, made so only by the thoughts, attitudes and actions of the combatants. It doesn't have to be.

Dave you've probably never presonally had to be in the situation these guys on the front line are facing... but you are probably trained to be there. Like I told JP, you've got a vehicle heading toward you, you've got 3 seconds before he breaches your checkpoint... what do you do? If you have to think about it, the vehicle will have breached your checkpoint and your ass is on the line for whatever happens next. Do you stop the vehicle at any means or take the responsibility of explaining why 20 of your fellow soldiers are dead because you didn't do your duty and stop the vehicle. You've got 3 seconds to make a decision... what do you do?

The only solution I have for these spot checkpoints is to position vehicles in the way so the vehicle will have to slow down and maneuver/weave around them like they do at the enterances to many military bases after 9-11 with the cement barracades.

Lee

Well...... 'Less violent' and 'war' are like oil and water. In your closing statement about life being cheap... That is a value judgment made by different people in different positions. Yes, what combatants value life is one thing. The definition of war is pretty clear on that. The discourse gets murky when the non combatants try to fight the war, or avoid it. As to the original intent of this thread. Just stop at the checkpoint. Jeff

"Jessie J." wrote...

That's neat!

"Alex Magdaleno" wrote..