OT Safely stopping vehicles trying to run check-points

Military tests nonfatal ways to halt vehicles http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-2383956.php
Two teams of military engineers competed to come up with a solution to
a problem U.S. troops face daily in Iraq - how to stop civilian vehicles that blunder past checkpoints without destroying the vehicles or killing their occupants.
Maj. Gen. Ted Bowlds, commander of the Air Force Research Laboratory, said that after a little refinement, the teams' devices probably will be used in Iraq.
"These young researchers have come up with some pretty good, innovative
ideas," Bowlds said. "My guess is, based on what I've seen, bits and pieces of what we've found here will find their way out there (to Iraq) in some fashion."
On a test range in the Arizona desert Nov. 10, Air Force Research Laboratory engineers used remote-controlled automobiles and high-speed cameras to test four devices they designed to halt oncoming traffic by non-lethal means.
A team of junior officers and civilian military engineers from Kirtland Air Force Base, N.M., was declared the winner for a pair of devices that literally lift an onrushing car off the ground, bringing it to an almost instant stop from a speed of 35 mph.
Bowlds said the Kirtland team's devices might be used in combination with elements of the designs produced by the competing team from Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio.
The teams of six engineers and scientists, all with less than five years' military experience, were given six months and $60,000 to come up with prototypes to help solve a frequent problem on the ground in Iraq.
Hundreds of cars and pickups pass through U.S. military checkpoints every day. Civilians have been injured and killed when they failed to stop as
requested and been fired on.
Troops trying to halt such vehicles are told to shoot at the engine block to disable the car, and if they miss, "they might hit something more important," said Capt. Chris Rehm, leader of the winning team from Kirtland.
"We're looking for some kind of nonlethal device we could give them," he said.
The teams came up with relatively similar solutions, despite working without knowing what the other was doing, said Mark Lewis, chief scientist of the Air Force.
They included:
. A wooden wedge placed in the roadway with barricades channeling traffic directly to it. If the vehicle does not stop and strikes the wedge, it is lifted up and slides to a stop, leaving the wheels of the vehicle off the ground and its undercarriage resting on the wooden wedge.
. A "sled" consisting of two low-lying aluminum boxes with air bags inside and grappling hooks at one end. When a vehicle passes over it, a soldier controlling the checkpoint can remotely activate the device, causing the hooks to latch to the front bumper and the airbags to deploy. The car is lifted off the ground by the airbags as the device drags along underneath the vehicle.
. A pair of devices made of steel tubing, one of them shaped like a triangle that rises up when struck, lifting the car's wheels off the ground.
The first two solutions won. The tests were conducted on sedans, an SUV and a van - typical civilian vehicles encountered by troops in Iraq.
They were carried out at a proving ground near Sierra Vista, Ariz., operated by Raytheon. The southern Arizona site was selected both to replicate Iraqi conditions and because the facility is a hub for the development of vehicles operated by remote control. Because the stops can be violent, the military did not want to use manned vehicles.
In addition to seeking a solution to a frequent problem, the Air Force conducted the competition as part of a program to develop expertise among junior military and civilian researchers and engineers who work for the
research laboratory.
Lewis, the service's top scientist at the Pentagon, said the Air Force Research Laboratory tries to anticipate technologies of the future, and "at the same time, we've got folks out in the battlefield now whose needs we are trying to answer."
"One of the things the lab is looking at is how we can respond more immediately to problems we're facing today," Lewis said. "We're concerned about saving as many lives as we can."
Karl
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Personally, I think the way to save the most lives (as the closing quote in the article states) is to blow the crap out of the vehicle that passes the checkpoint. There will probably only be one person in the vehicle. Sacrifice the one willing vehicle occupant, who is willing to die anyways, for the potential saving of everyone he was trying to kill. No brainer. "Click BOOM! (you), or "Click BOOM" (him)... Quick...You decide..... That counts for all checkpoints in all countries. Won't take very many episodes for the understanding of 'stop here' means... Jeff
Karl wrote:

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Lots of innocent civilians have died over there due to just that tactic. Each one creates a family looking for revenge. We often had poorly marked check points and sometimes whole families were killed or injured. A majority of the people over there say it is OK to attack the Americans. The government we support has said it will, in the future grant amnesty to the insurgents, including those who attack us.

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Read the news Jeff, that attitude is what is causing so much strife over there, some dumb ass with a pregnant woman in his car ran a check point and got blown to heck.
Fodder for the insurgency.
Some dumb s**t decided to run the check point with his family inside, they got blown to heck, more fodder for the insurgency.
This is a marketing issue, and not a tactical issue, every 'innocent' Iraqi that gets shot up by a G.I. is yet another marketing opportunity for the Extremist Muslims or the Insurgency.
p.d.
Jeff wrote:

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WTF is Oujdeiv?
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3762&version=kjv
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Concur with Both y'all
Check points with armed people at them should set off a warning bell in your head.
" Gee, maybe this is a dangerous place. Perhaps I will comply with the directions."
Natural selection = The smart survive. Cruel, but fair.
We should advertise the rules for checkpoints 1. stop 2. comply 3. failure to do 1 and 2 will result in death
I really ain't that heartless, but "they" attacked us time and time again. Now the fight is on raghead turf instead of Manhatten and DC.
Unfortunately the liberal half of America and their media bias will lose this battle for us.
We will pull out and abandon the people we tried to save, just like Vietnam. This time IRAN will become the dmoinant influence and a few months or years later, the conflict will be back inside our country.
Mark (Disgusted) Dunning
Read the news Jeff, that attitude is what is causing so much strife over there, some dumb ass with a pregnant woman in his car ran a check point and got blown to heck.
Fodder for the insurgency.
Some dumb s**t decided to run the check point with his family inside, they got blown to heck, more fodder for the insurgency.
This is a marketing issue, and not a tactical issue, every 'innocent' Iraqi that gets shot up by a G.I. is yet another marketing opportunity for the Extremist Muslims or the Insurgency.
p.d.
Jeff wrote:

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Most of the time, the hajji that didn't stop were not driving pregnant women. If there were more than one in the car, it was 3 or 4 men, usually armed. The mindset in the middle east is not the one in western countries. If they don't stop it is usually a) they are doing something wrong or b) they want to prove their balls are bigger than yours. Either way, they make themselves a threat. Threats need to be neutralized. I know.
Dan Kay Iraq, class of '03
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Again, it's a marketing issue, not necessarily a Military Issue. As long as the insurgency can point to 'innocent' deaths, then for many, America is evil, and killing Americans is O.K.
'Winning' this will require as much spin in Iraq as has been used here.
p.d.
Dan Kay wrote:

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WTF is Oujdeiv?
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3762&version=kjv
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Too late.
We lost over a year ago.
Politically correct warfare NEVER works. It didn't in WW II and it doesn't now.
This whole Iraq thing should have been concluded three years ago...
JT
Oujdeiv wrote:

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Glad to hear from someone that has actually been there and is not just repeating what they heard on the 'drive by media'.
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thanks,
Jerry Forrester
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It is most definitely a tactical issue over there. It is only a marketing issue back here in this country, marketing used for political reasons.
Dumb ass'es that run checkpoints are asking to be destroyed. And some of them are doing just that. Asking, taunting, and trying to destroy themselves (martyrdom) and their indoctrinated perceived enemies. What part of stop don't you, or Alex, (or they) understand. I wasn't saying to shoot indiscriminately. Never did. I also added the caveat that the country, or countries, involved mattered not a bit. In a war zone (all nomenclature and adjectives aside), you stop when they ( the military, police, and government officials) tell you to stop. Not complying is asking for trouble. You say my attitude causing strife? WTF... That stuff has been going on over there for hundreds of years. Saying my attitude is making it worse is ...(thinking of the right word here...) stupid (yeah, that's the right word...it fits). What is causing strife over there is a very select group of people that want to take over and control things over there. They want to take control without letting any of the people there have a say in who is going to be in control. And if anyone argues... They kill them. Oh yeah. My attitude is making that situation worse. The mere fact that we are asking our military to be nice in a war is ludicrous. The mere fact that our very own citizens would openly speak about quitting is the biggest fodder we give to the terrorists and insurgents. What pisses me off is to hear about every GI that gets shot, or blown up by a roadside bomb planted by someone we are trying to 'market' to... What a load of crap. Let our military finish the job they were sent to do. They know what they are doing. And don't tell me to 'read the news'... I do. Try to read all different sides, too. OK.. Here's one for you guys... "Read ALL the news. Not just the stuff that you agree with".. Sorry, but this thread is as stupid as the day is long. Screw it. I'm going back out to work on Stude stuff.... My attitude must suck, and you guys aren't helping it any. Strife my ass..... Stupid, just stupid..
"Oujdeiv" wrote...

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Now you will understand why I have killfiled these two idiots.
Lee

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Run and hide Lee. Tough questions that ask people to think make some people uncomfortable.

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Towards the end of World War II, we gave the Japanese an ultimatum, surrender or suffer total destruction. It took two tries, but it worked.
During the first encounter in Fajulla (sp?), an ultimatum should have been issued to toe tune of "send the civilians out" followed by surrender of the remaining actors. Give 'em a day to think about it then if no response was forthcoming, drop a few MOAB(s).
It's the only language irrational people understand.
But nooooooo, we pursued a tap and dance to politically correct warfare and here we are, defeated. Almost 3,000 service members dead and for what?
I have nothing but contempt for politicians of all flavors. I was part of the receiving end in the 1960's and it's all playing out exactly the same now.
It's time to replace the entire regime in Washington...
JT
Jeff Rice wrote:

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And what do you suggest replacing them with? Nothings available but more of the same.
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thanks,
Jerry Forrester
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Dave you've probably never presonally had to be in the situation these guys on the front line are facing... but you are probably trained to be there. Like I told JP, you've got a vehicle heading toward you, you've got 3 seconds before he breaches your checkpoint... what do you do? If you have to think about it, the vehicle will have breached your checkpoint and your ass is on the line for whatever happens next. Do you stop the vehicle at any means or take the responsibility of explaining why 20 of your fellow soldiers are dead because you didn't do your duty and stop the vehicle. You've got 3 seconds to make a decision... what do you do?
The only solution I have for these spot checkpoints is to position vehicles in the way so the vehicle will have to slow down and maneuver/weave around them like they do at the enterances to many military bases after 9-11 with the cement barracades.
Lee

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Lee Aanderud wrote:

No, I can't say that I have experienced exactly the same situations as our troops are facing in Iraq. Do ya think I served 30 years as a cop, and never experienced this scenerio?:

You would be wrong, sir.
Here in America, in civilian terms, these are called road blocks. I have been involved with many, probably half of which the driver ran through. In one local case, a rookie police officer shot and killed the driver, a meth dealer, in the act of attempting to elude police. That was the end of the officer's short career, and life as he knew it. But, this was an American, shot by a civilian police officer.
While the rules are different... (police are required to give the offender an "out," we cannot establish a complete roadblock.) The experience is very much the same, I'm pretty sure.

In a perfect world, given time to plan and establish security plans, you are exactly correct. In the real world, sometimes check points have to be established quickly, using what you have to work with.
BTW, Jerry is one of my friends, and does not fall in the dim-wit catagory. <G> Sorry I took yer head off, Jerry, but we all know how keyboarding lacks when it comes to communication.
Dave Lester
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How would I know... I knew cops back in ND who never had to pull their gun in 30 years on the job. My hometown cop didn't even carry a gun 90% of the time he was on duty.

How so, are you saying that our soldiers should allow vehicles to breech the checkpoints? In doing so would probably require a chase. If you've got a handful of soldiers manning the checkpoint, do you really want 50% leaving to chase down a guy scared of stopping and leaving the other 50% to defend the checkpoint? The enemy then has effectively elimated 50% of our defense system. Then what happens to the checkpoint? It would take about 20 minutes for the enemy to figure that one out... you send a decoy through and then send the truck full of explosives through after the chase moves out . I think there has already been soldiers killed using this strategy. The point is to check every vehicle that goes through, not cut and run after every stray vehicle.

I'd label it, "a criminal shot by a police officer". I'm not arguing that a person's life wouldn't change after killing another human being, but that's a risk one takes in that career. I'm sure you have to be willing and able to do that if the situation requires it.

What is the reasoning behind a roadblock if you have to allow a way out for the offender? Are you supposed to wave at the guy as he drives through it too??? Sounds like something a defense lawyer got pushed through the court system. In Iraq/Afghanistan, nobody is innocent until proven guilty... if they're running rolling bombs through you have to treat every vehicle as a suspected bomb vehicle.

Exactly, which is what I was trying to explain... stagger vehicles in the lanes, ditches, whatever. I meant the concrete barriers as an example of how to lay them out... otherwise you'd have to have a truck and crane at every checkpoint.

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"Dave's Place www.davesplaceinc.com" wrote:

I don't think so.
If so, you've faced civilian vehicles with suicide bombers?
If so, You've faced vehicles that look exactly like other vehicles with respect to occupants?
If so, during patrols, you run a good risk of encountering IED's?
If so, you've faced youngsters formally trained to take you out?
I don't think so

Those drivers did not have a ton of explosives and in all probability would not have considered sacrificing their life for (bogus) religious reasons.

I don't think so.
JT
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I really did forget the <G> Just my lame attempt at being funny. Guess I should leave that to the professionals, huh? Just got off the phone with Dave and he and I are back on the same page. But anyway, it appears that I have awaken a sleeping giant. Play nice boys and girls. Jerry

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You're from Aladambama, huh? Maybe we need to take a trip.... Here's a guy that can help us all <lol> http://tinyurl.com/yccz49
"jerrystudebaker" wrote...

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